MTP 79: Dr. Kim Shorter, Hitting Rock Bottom in Postdoctoral Years, Until God Rescued

Dr. Kim Shorter is a Full Professor of Biology at University of South Carolina Upstate. Her research focuses on epigenetics and neuroscience, and she recently received a National Institutes of Health grant of $517,000 supporting her work. She shares about her battle with depression and anxiety during a difficult postdoctoral appointment and answers college student Ashley Davis’ question, ‘How do you show grace in the classroom when discussing science and faith?’

Some of Shane’s highlights:

• Growing up in church but not truly knowing Christ
• The sermon on Jesus’ crucifixion that changed everything
• Head knowledge vs. heart knowledge of God
• What Kim most appreciates about Jesus today
• Romans 8:28 and seeing God's hand in difficult seasons
• Science, epigenetics, and viewing research through a biblical lens
• Encouragement for Christian professors to be bold
• Advice for students: ask questions and don't fear failure

Resources from Faculty Commons, a Cru ministry:

• Find 500+ Christian professors at https://meettheprof.com/
• Faculty Commons – https://www.facultycommons.org/
• A Grander Story – https://a.co/d/8VoYXSV
• EveryStudent.com – https://www.everystudent.com/

Watch MTP on YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@MeetTheProfOfficial/videos

Support Shane Hartley's ministry with Meet The Prof through Cru online: ⁠⁠https://give.cru.org/0424344⁠⁠

Transcript

0:33

Hey everybody, welcome to Meet the Prof. I'm Shane Hartley. I'm so glad you're here. I am on staff with Faculty Commons, a Cru ministry to faculty, staff and grad students. And Meet the Prof is a podcast where we interview Christian professors and we use questions just like you heard from Ashley and other college students. And we ask them to professors with a goal of encouraging Christ-centered conversations on the college campus. So thanks for joining us. It always helps if you click on like or subscribe or follow wherever you're listening or watching if you're on YouTube or Apple Podcasts or Spotify or something else. I'm excited for you to get to meet Dr. Kim Shorter. Dr. Shorter is a Full Professor of Biology at USC Upstate. That's University of South Carolina Upstate. She has recently been awarded $517,000 for her research. So, Kim, it is so great to have you here. Thanks for joining us on Meet the Prof. How you doing today? I'm doing really well. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm excited to get to meet you. I'm excited for others to get to know you as well. And we have some friends in common, a close friend, John Lancaster with Faculty Commons there in the Spartanburg upstate area. So it's great for me to get to meet you now personally. And uh I so appreciate your testimony on meettheprof.com. I appreciate your transparency about your journey and your struggle with depression, how God has worked in your life and I would like to first ask you about how you came to Christ because you described having grown up going to church, like a lot of our listeners have, a lot of the faculty friends I have, and yet it wasn't until you were in grad school that you say you came to know Christ, that you actually became a Christian. So what happened? What made the switch? What changed for you then in grad school? Well, I don't pinpoint anything in graduate school itself. I think some of it was the church that I was going to. I don't think I had ever had anyone tell me the story of the crucifixion of Jesus, the way that they presented it at that church. And like I had seen a part of that Passion movie back in the day that was that was actually yeah It came out of maybe a few years before that. I think I'm not really sure on that timeline um but yeah, I I can't pinpoint anything in graduate school itself. I will admit that I was very lonely because even though I wasn't saved by or had not accepted Jesus um as my savior yet, I was different than other people. I wasn't going out and drinking and partying, you know, after getting off work. um So I was just very lonely and I went to this um Baptist church in Sumter where I was living at the time and really it was the telling of that story how how battered he was, how much pain he went through. And that the whole time that he was going through that, he was thinking of us. Even though we were not even born yet. And I remember sitting there on, it was technically a chair, not a pew. Sitting in that chair that day, I felt like even though it was full, the room was full, I felt like there was no one else in there. And it was like that pastor was saying it to me directly and I just felt like it was indescribable and the tears just started flowing and it wouldn't stop. And I even left the church that day without making a profession of faith or anything. I think I was kind of confused because I was thinking I've been in church my whole life and I've even been baptized in a Baptist church. How is this happening to me now? know? Like it just didn't make any sense to me. And then I think I just sat and thought about it the rest of that afternoon in quiet. And then that night is when I was like, you know, I don't know. I don't know God. I don't know who Jesus is. I didn't know all of this. And I got on my knees in my room. And that's when I said, I can't believe, Lord, that you did all of this for me. Like, that you would suffer like this because he was a man in flesh with, like us. Like, so he felt every bit of that. And that he would do that for people that were mocking him. um went against him, said everything ugly about him. You know, things that we would be angry at people for. That he was loving enough and to know that God would love us that much. I had just never been introduced to that before and that's what changed was finding out the love of God, His grace, and what He was willing to go through and it just... It was just, it filled me with awe and it broke me down to know that anybody could do that for me. So one of the reasons I love doing these interviews is I learn stuff. so it's so fitting it would come from a biology professor to help me understand. Yeah, because Jesus was fully man as well as fully God, he felt things the way I would feel it. It's not like he had a lesser pain. He went through the mental anguish even that I could imagine going through with the rejection of others and the shame. and then experiencing the condemnation of the Father for that time on the cross. So thank you for that. And what I was thinking also, you're really describing what Jesus described as being born again when he was talking to Nicodemus in that story and a religious leader saying, unless you're born again, you can't sing the kingdom of God. so, I mean, I could just imagine you at that time sitting and being confused. Like I've grown up in church, I've heard all about God and Jesus and yet I don't know him. And what am I experiencing here? Just, I appreciate you going through that with us of uh mentally how you're trying to figure out oh why am I um experiencing this different uh heart towards God uh deeper. It sounds like a personal knowledge of what Jesus did for you, not just an intellectual knowledge. Does that sound like a good way of summarizing it? Yeah, I would say before it was all brain knowledge, head knowledge, and that was the switch to when it became the heart knowledge, yeah. Really? Well, so I want to ask you a question that uh it's almost impossible to ask. I haven't asked many professors this on the interview, but it's the question of what is something you appreciate about Jesus? I would say it's his love and patience for people. um Because honestly, I'm someone that every day I go home and I think about everything I've done wrong through the day and my brain just, I have arguments in the shower with myself over how should I have handled that better and I think about how... Like, God, Jesus does not judge me for this. He just asked that if I do it wrong this time, I ask for forgiveness and learn from it. And He's forgiving and still loves me even when I mess up. And that's, it's just something that other... like people don't do. It's hard for humans that are not, you know, the son of God. It's hard for us to be so forgiving and so loving towards people. And I just, it makes me just want to be more like him because I want to also give that to other people and show people what that is and what Jesus is and who he is. Yeah, having patience and love towards others is not natural and uh that has to come from this supernatural experience of his love and his patience. And I'm like you, I don't give it to myself a lot. I will second guess myself, beat myself up over things and what a gracious God that Jesus is patient and loving. That's such a good word. Thanks, Kim. I just really appreciated how transparent you were about struggling with depression and anxiety. You're not alone in that. I struggle with depression. There's so many in academia who struggle with anxiety and depression. Yeah, so when I was in my postdoc, the whole issue was part of it. I didn't get a day off. Working with the type of research we were doing, it was seven days a week, every week. I didn't even get to come back home for Christmas or any other holidays or anything. And first of all, that'll wear you out mentally. But second is I stopped going to church again. um when I was in that postdoc because I had to work. So I didn't go to church and I tried to watch some like live streams of churches, but it just wasn't the same. um If anybody went to church online during COVID, they probably know what I'm talking about that there's just a difference. And God says we're supposed to go to church to connect with other Christians and to be around people that think like us and that way we feel like we're not alone. I think I just I felt very alone first of all during that time but second um I didn't have a good relationship with my mentor that was my my post-doctoral boss. We just really didn't see eye to eye on like here's where it should go next as far as the research process. And I was brought in as someone with expertise in epigenetics and I would try to show her this is why I think this and it just was met kind of like a brick wall. And I felt like I didn't belong there anymore. I was like, why am I even here? I don't seem to have a purpose. And I think at that point too, I started learning more about what it's like to be a full-time researcher. The chair of the department I was in, I went to him as kind of a mentor and just asked because his NIH grant had just run out. um and it was not renewed. And he had a lab full of people that he was paying and I was like, so what do you do, you know, when you get in this kind of situation and he kind of jokingly said it but was serious at the same time and he said, well, take out another mortgage on your house. Oh no. And I was like, I can't deal with this stress. Like, this is so much stress. And I think I went through a little bit of a crisis of what am I going to do because I thought this was what I wanted. really, doing the research, I love it so much that I thought it was what I wanted, like full time, doing nothing but that. And I started thinking back to graduate school and everything like with the teaching I had to teach throughout graduate school and I really enjoyed it. I like working with the students and I started realizing this is why I'm unhappy. I'm not doing what I was called to do. And. I got so low at one point with feeling like I don't belong here. I'm not getting along with my boss. I'm so lonely that I recall um I would say prayers where I would say, Lord, if you can't remove me from this situation, I'm going to need you to go ahead and just take me out of the world. However, that happens. um It was a very dark time and I remember speaking to my grandma, um she's one of those grandmas that make sure you're in church and all that. Yeah. Thank God for our grandmas. um And I spoke to her and she just kept trying to encourage me like don't say these kind of things you don't mean it and Be careful what you're praying, you know, because the Lord does answer prayers and it may not be in the way you like um Yeah, I'm sure it did. Looking back, just... You say things like that when you're at rock bottom and you don't know what else to say. It's just all that can come out. And I was sitting on that porch outside of the building I worked in just sobbing on the phone. And she was like, well, I'm going to start praying too, but I'm going to pray that something opens up that's more fitting for you and you can find it and that you'll move out of that situation. situation and I remember telling her it I love this story because it just it just proves to me God it proves it so I Remember saying because I had gone to college in Spartanburg and I even presented my research at USC upstate years and years before this And I said, well, USC Upstate has such a pretty campus. And I liked when I visited there and just presented research. And it'd be great if somewhere like that would have an opening, you know, because I could teach, I could still do a research program, but the research wouldn't be at the forefront of everything. Like it wouldn't make or break me. um And she said, well, I'm going to start praying and you pray too. And we both did. And every day I go on a website and look you know to see what kind of job postings and then I saw it and it said assistant professor of biology and the description was someone that can read or sorry teach 101 that's like Intro Cell and Molec., and then someone it preference would be given to someone that teaches histology and neurobiology Yeah. thing is, is not many people would have the ability to teach all of those because it's kind of a diverse em group of classes in a way. can. And the irony that I was put as the teaching assistant in histology in grad school at a last minute situation when someone graduated that they didn't know was graduating and and then neuro it came to me through the research so I learned it through that. And I was like, this is weird. Like how fitting this is, this job description. And I applied for it. And I remember it was like a couple of months before I interviewed or anything. And then they offered it to me and I was like, this was God. God got me out of this. Like, yeah. an outlet well. um But yeah, I have definitely had my struggles with anxiety and depression and every time that I've managed to get in a sort of a low spot, this is another quality of God that I just love. Like, he reaches in and pulls you right back out. All you have to do is just ask him. Yeah, yeah, there's a verse Psalm 145 somewhere. says he upholds those who are falling, raises up those who are bowed down. That speaks my heart too. Have you seen, so this is what I was hearing some in your story. Like there were a few serious triggers, uh serious um weights on you. One being interpersonal conflict with your mentor. One being sense of purposelessness. So maybe that's like a vocational uh pressure. uh One was a social feeling alone. Was it just like a combination of all these things hitting at once that just made this so devastating? I think it was the combination that really made it a lot worse. Because I had had all of these at one point or another. It was just all of it hitting at one time. And the bad thing is that Satan and demons, know. They know exactly what your triggers are. And they will do everything to try to put you in that dark place. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Have you identified any of those specific triggers that you have to be especially vigilant about uh these days to is vocational still really heavy or social any isolation or loneliness or anything else like for me often it is a sense of failure if I feel like I'm not succeeding in my calling or feeling purposeful That will be a great emotional weight. Another is rejection from others. So I feel that with any kind of conflict. But what about for you? Have you identified any things you still have to be really vigilant to resist? um So I would say that these days I have a very good support system with the church I go to. um I'm there every time the doors are open. And I would say these days though it's the interpersonal. um When I start getting those feelings and worrying like, did I upset this person or... you know, did I say something wrong? And those kind of things, again, if you allow it to take hold and you don't just reach out to God for peace, it will, it will strangle you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because we care about people. We don't want to disappoint others. But yeah, we can have an inordinate care that ends up being like death. And some of that's out of our control, isn't it, to please other people? Well, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, certainly. Well, so is there a Bible verse that has stood out to you as this is you would say is one of my favorite Bible verses one that either you could State from memory for us or you could take a minute. Look it up and read to us Yeah, so Romans 8 28 I put that that one in my In my story. It's and all things will work together for good for those that love the Lord Because every time something bad happens That's what I remember is that this is all gonna end up working out It's part of his story Sorry if I start tearing up a little bit Thank you. Thank you for sharing something so heartfelt. And you've seen a lot of trouble. Yeah. There certainly has been, or have been, a lot of things that have happened over the last 18 years of my life, but God has managed to work every single bit of it for where I'm at now. What a great inspiration for all of us who some of us listeners may be in a place that is dark now and waiting on God still to lift us out of it and show what His purpose is for allowing some of difficult things. So how encouraging to hear your testimony. You have seen that God works all things for the good of those He loves. And these are happy tears. It's happy and just so overjoyed and over thankful for everything that God's done. um Well, Kim, talk to us some about your relationships now specifically with your students. I would imagine that students find you very approachable. What have your relationships been like with your students over the years? How much are you able to talk to them about God? Have them come to you when they found out you're a Christian? uh What have you seen happen with students? I certainly have had a lot of students come to my office and even students not just from my classes but that work in research with me. um That they know I'm a Christian. I don't know how they know this. um It's almost like God directs them to it or something. I don't know. And they'll come to me and just start spilling their hearts out. I'm always so like taken back by how did one how did they know this that that i'm a safe place and then number two is i'm just sitting there like, "God thank you so much for putting me here to be able to help these people." um i keep a uh a devotional on my on my desk at work and I read it every morning before I start the day. So when I finish one, I'll take another one with me. And for a while it was one called, I think it's like, You're Going to Make It Through or something. It's a Lysa TerKeurst book. yeah, I know her Yeah, it's, I love her books and um I had that one on my desk and I had a young lady come to my office that is one of my research students and we had had sort of a rapport already with, you know, talking about what God's doing for you, how God's using bad things to work for better and That day I had literally read a devotional that when she came in and described what she was going through, I pulled that devotional and opened it. said, I'm gonna read this to you. Yeah. And she's not the only one that that's happened with, but she's to me one of the most striking examples because one I never understood how she knew to to come to me. I mean, I'm I'm very open outside of class. Maybe it was just through the grapevine that word was passed or something. And. that'll go out on YouTube, so maybe you'll have more people coming to you. Yeah. um So maybe she just heard about it from someone or I sometimes though I do wonder if God just sort of shows people like you know and So I yeah, I love when students come to me and start talking about God because I'm like, yes, I can talk about God now and I can have these conversations with them and try to help guide them from that perspective. Because it being a state school, I have to be careful if they're not sort of bringing it up. I'm not really supposed to be bringing it up. I have asked a student one time that didn't bring it up if I could pray for them when they left. yeah, um because I was, so they said, when I leave you can. And I said, okay. And I said, I'm letting you know I'm going to be praying for you. And it was just a, it was a, really bad situation. I don't want to say anything else about that situation on here, but I was like this this student needs prayer. They need to know that this was also my way of like, hey I'm a Christian and I would like to help you if you would let me. Like I'd love to talk to you, you know. Unfortunately that never... yeah. Unfortunately, it never came to fruition that we went any further with that conversation, but it was, I definitely tried. m Yeah, as students are coming to you with problems, sometimes you're probably seeing that there's a spiritual nature to their problems that might not be evident on the surface. Yeah. Well, so I have heard other professors who work for state universities and schools say that they still feel the freedom at the beginning of their school year during their bio introduction times to say anything personal about themselves. And so while sharing about their hobbies, their family life, they could share uh that they are a follower of Christ and go to such and such church and then can go right into their favorite vacation place. you know, what they're learning and cooking, you know, just put it all right in there. Do you think you would ever feel comfortable sharing with your students that way that you're a Christian? That's actually a good idea. I'm gonna be honest with you, first day of class, I just jump right in and I'm like, here's my name, here's my office location, here's the syllabus. I don't really do like an intro or anything. Yeah, it's pretty much like that. It's just like, here we go, chapter one, you know? huh, yeah. So I've never thought about doing that, but maybe that actually is a great idea. I like that. Well, it's not my own. I've heard many other professors share that they do that, and I've heard some legal counsel how the employees of state universities have every right to share. As long as they're acknowledging, this is me personally. I'm not speaking for the university now when I say that I follow Christ. I'm talking about myself personally, and that's pretty evident most of the time. Yeah. Well, I actually have a specific question from a student. So Ashley Davis is a student who has a question that she gears uh more towards asking about topics of science and God that come up in class. So take a listen to Ashley's question. Thank you Ashley for your question. um The answer to this is a very complex one. think especially coming from my perspective as a biologist. um So the thing is, is I have very open conversations about stuff in my classes. My classes tend to be a little more medically relevant than um on the evolution ecology side, but I can share some stories to the other effect. um I remember my very first semester, I had a student in that classroom that... raised their hand and became a little bit combative with me um in the way that they asked this. They said, well I believe in creation so why do I need to learn this? Evolution's fake. And I said, well, you know, I respect all beliefs in my classroom no matter what it is. And I can't really go into my personal beliefs in detail in this classroom, but I would love to talk to you about that after class and have a conversation. Unfortunately, they never came to my office or anything to have that conversation, but I was very open to having it. I will admit I was very scared. That was my first semester on the job. I had no guarantees of anything. So I was terrified when that was asked and I did not know what to do. I was a little bit lost. But I will say this semester, had a student ask me "why would this have evolved?" talking about A topic that's very medically relevant called epigenetics. So I just looked at this student this past semester and I said, well, the interesting thing about epigenetics is that no one can figure out how it evolved. And that's it. It just, it doesn't seem like it did. So, you know, back, I guess back to Ashley's question. I, it's very sensitive. the kind of thing that you're asking. And I always teach things from the perspective of I tell my students the truth. That's what I do. I actually do not teach um evolution in the sense that a lot of people define the word, where they say, we came from single-celled organisms to apes and all that. Because here's the truth is there is no evidence of it. But I come from the standpoint of telling my students the truth and because I am at a state school, I allow them to come to their own conclusions. So. Hmm. Even my neurobiology class, I talk about neural development in humans. It begins a lot earlier than a lot of people would have you believe. And that is why I am, I'll go ahead and say it on here for the world to hear, I am not pro-abortion. the nerve cells start reaching out their little processes by um only a few days in culture. And I know that it's like a sped up version of real life, but that's indicative of very early um things like pain perception could be happening a lot earlier than what we even currently think. really? So I just cannot get on board with something like that when you could be causing pain and yet you worry about the pain of things that are not humans, that are much less complex. Again, like a lot of our ocean creatures. Thank you. Well, I think that Ashley will appreciate your answer. And Is there anything else that you would like to share? So Christian professors, I would love to just give the advice if you're not already doing this, don't be afraid to talk to people about being a Christian and your beliefs and things because again, one day it's all about you're gonna meet God and face to face you have to give that account and that's all that matters in the end. It's not about a job. I let fear control me for too long and I have regrets that I have to live with. And now I'm trying to be as open as a book about the Lord and what he's done and the truth behind all of the things that we teach these things and yet if it's not true should we really be teaching it? I can't imagine going through life and getting to the end of it and wondering what did I do? Did I cause other people to fall? And that's not something I want for myself. And I think if you're a Christian professor, you've got to get to that point. And that's why one of my favorite people to read some of the books and that I've learned about him is Dietrich Bonhoeffer. So that's a recommendation, a little plug. If you don't know who Dietrich Bonhoeffer is, you might want to go read about him too. Can I give some advice to students too? Be bold. Never stop asking questions. Question everything. And then my other advice is don't be afraid to mess up. You're going to mess up and it's okay, especially if you're a science student. One of the most heartbreaking things is when students are afraid to try things because they are afraid to mess up. And I'm like, you know how many times I've messed up and how many times I've broken expensive glassware or something and I'm still alive. It's okay. Well, Kim, thank you. You know, it sounds like you have done this interview really in a time of transition in your own boldness and courage because you described that you haven't been comfortable to tell your students anything about your faith in the classroom and yet now you're doing this interview, you're putting this out there and sharing about God's work in your life, as well as challenging other professors to Christian professors, be bold, talk about their faith. So it's a real honor to get to meet you and hear where you are in this journey as you continue to learn and grow. So thank you for sharing all of this. Yeah, it was again it was a pleasure to do this and I'm so excited that I did this and that I have an idea now for next semester when it starts to open up day one and just tell people.