MTP 64: Denis LaClare Part 1, How to Step Into Disciple-Making by Launching a Student or Faculty Ministry

Dr. Denis LaClare is a Professor of Education at Porterville College in California with a rare perspective: he serves both as a campus minister and as a full-time professor. In this episode, Denis shares his powerful testimony of how a sports-focused Canadian student came to Christ through brokenness, family, and a coach's profanity. He also opens up about the challenges of early evangelism, his transition from ministry to the classroom, and how professors can step into disciple-making right where they are.

Read more about Denis LaClare online: https://meettheprof.com/view/professors/entry/denis-laclare/

Christian professors, we invite you to:

1. Submit a Profile on MeetTheProf.com: https://meettheprof.com/create-profile/
2. Read A Grander Story: An Invitation to Christian Professors: https://a.co/d/8VoYXSV

Students and parents can find over 500 Christian professors at:
https://meettheprof.com/

Get free resources for answering questions about God at:
https://www.everystudent.com/

Watch Meet The Prof on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@MeetTheProfOfficial/videos

Listen on Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/6kizp6klascdMj1nqaj6LD

Listen on Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/meet-the-prof-with-shane-and-spence/id1733311320

If you’d like to financially support our ministry, you can do so online at https://give.cru.org/0424344

Transcript

0:00

My name is Paxton. I'm a sophomore here at UNCW. I study Nursing. And my question for professors is how do you partner with campus ministries to reach students with the gospel? Hey everybody, welcome to Meet the Prof. This is the podcast where we take questions from college students just like you heard from Paxton and we ask them to Christian professors and our goal is to encourage Christ-centered conversations on the college campus. We are so glad you're here. Thank you if you're watching this on YouTube or if you're listening to this as a podcast. We don't take that lightly. we think that this is going to be worth your time. You're going to hear part one of my interview with Denis LaClare. Denis is a Professor of Education at Porterville College in California. And Dr. LaClare is very unique because he not only is working as a professor, but he has quite a bit of time being a campus minister. So I think you'll enjoy hearing about his experience and how he lives in both worlds. If you are on a community college campus, there could be steps you could do to start your own Christian group with students, to start your own faculty group with Christian faculty. And so you'll get some practical ideas from him even. So, well, let's jump in. Here is part one of my interview with Dr. Denis LaClare. Denis, it is so great to be with you. Thanks for joining us on Meet the Prof. How are you doing today out there in California? I'm doing great Shane, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to our conversation. I've been looking forward to this too. Yeah, I really appreciate the time. so I'm really interested to hear, especially with you as a Canadian and coming to the US, you know we ask all the professors of embarrassing moments. What some embarrassing moments you ever had as a college student or as a professor? Yes, I've had a few and I did have one as a student. And we were, my wife and I were taking an advanced Spanish conversational course at the University of Manitoba, where we were actually working with Cru And we were going over this chapter. It was more of a, a kid's book for introduction to Spanish. And the topic was about this old dog. And the professor would sort of randomly just ask students something from that chapter. And he asked me, Denis, how old is the dog? I thought I know this. perro tiene 14, you're supposed to say años, the dog has 14 years or the dog is 14 years old. Well, I forgot about the tilde and pronounced años without the neos sound. And he looked horrified because I had said the dog has, you know, 14 rear ends essentially to sanitize this conversation. And he looked horrified. I realized what I had done. I looked horrified. Pregnant pause and then everybody burst out laughing. And then I was known as the 14 year old dog guy and the rest of that Spanish class. that one. Right, right. We'll let people put in the comments on YouTube and others if they've done something similar in Spanish. I know you're not the only one who's done that with años. That's hilarious. That says a lot that the students in the class were able to get it, so they understood. Yeah, I think we were among the lower end of the conversational Spanish in that class. So was humbling in more ways than one. I hear you. I hear you. Well, Denis, I really appreciated how transparent you were on meettheprof.com. And I'd love to jump in to talking about your spiritual journey. And you shared how, for one, when your dad passed away unexpectedly, when you're 15 years old and you made this commitment to not going to church anymore, and then you talk about when you go off to college in the US, at that point, you had some divine interventions Tell us about that. How did you come to faith in Christ? Yeah, so I was raised in a religious home, very observant. We went to church every Sunday. I would go with my dad. Well, we would all go. I'm the youngest of nine kids. So it was a big group that went down there. Some of us would just walk to church because we couldn't all fit in the family car. But I was an altar boy, was captivated in some ways by the mysteries of the Christian faith, but it was very liturgical. I don't remember having a priest who spoke my first heart language of English. That was a second language for them. I grew up in a family whose parents spoke French as their first language. And so there were some barriers and I just couldn't seem to decode the essentials of the Christian faith. And I remember as a young boy, maybe 10 or 11, asking my dad, dad, can I stop going to church? And he gave me the answer that was popular of his generation. He said, son, If as long as you're under the roof of my house, you'll come to church with me. And when you're out on your own, you can make that decision for yourself. And I thought that was a fair answer and I accepted it. But I think for me, I believed in the creeds. You know, I believed in some of the great stories of the Bible, obviously. Although in our particular situation, we didn't immerse ourselves very much in the Scriptures. And it was just disappointing. I felt sort of frustrated on a spiritual level. so when my dad died, very suddenly, I asked my mom an existential question. I was 14, actually. Well, just about 15. You said 15. She had come up the step. She was not home and I was at home and I said, Mom, where's dad? And she said, I don't know. I've shared with him the same message I've shared with you kids because she had come to faith in Christ at that time. within our religious context. And that really bothered me. Like, where do your loved ones go when they pass away? And how does faith get them there, if at all? And so that really bothered me. And so I pretty much stopped going to church at that point, and I eventually went to the US to play baseball. And it was there that I got into some trouble. I was a little bit of a wild child. And I remember deciding to return to Canada. And I felt like opportunities were just eluding me and escaping me. This wasn't going to work out actually for academic reasons more than athletic because I found out that the transfer credits wouldn't transfer back into the program that I'd started in Canada. Anyway, my teammates took me up to this saloon. It was on the second story of this old building and they were buying me drinks. I was very irresponsible young man. drank far too much and I ended up falling down this flight of stairs, head over heels. I thought I was gonna break something. And I get down to the street, the stairs were just down to the sidewalk. All these pickup trucks lined up on the street outside this saloon, this sort of cowboy saloon. And I remember I was sort of half under the front end of this big truck, looking up at the stars thinking, okay, I don't think I broke anything. And kind of the message I felt I was hearing, I will attribute that to God was Denis, this is the culmination of your life of self-centeredness, of trying to direct your own life. You're in a foreign country, you're lonely, you're intoxicated, you're dropping out of school, your athletic dreams are diminished. And I just thought, yeah, like it was sort of this acknowledgement. I've almost at the end of myself. And so I got on a plane. was my first plane ride. And cause I had driven down to the U S with a teammate of mine who played at a neighboring college and we drove down together. So I got this one way ticket back home and I felt like the prodigal son who had sort of squandered his opportunities. And, remember my brother picked me up at the airport and the first thing he did was pass me a beer. And that's the first time I remember turning one of those down. And remember getting mad at him saying, that's the last thing I need right now. It was about a week later that I actually trusted Christ fully for the first time. I had had some exposure through my mom. Four of my sisters had come to Christ and they were always sort of trying to sow seeds or even witness to me. And usually I would get angry and push them away. I did though watch a full telecast of Billy Graham. Earlier the year that my dad had died, a few months before he died, I was 14. And at the end of that telecast, my mom had said to me, son, She didn't say a word during that one hour. At the end, she said, son, that's what a Christian is. And I remember thinking, I believe that, know, intellectually, but this idea of repenting of my sins, of surrendering fully to Christ or anyone else was not very appealing to me. I wanted to be the master of my own domain. But after this experience in the US, When I returned home, there was a real openness at this point and a real brokenness. had recognized I'm not doing very well, even living my life as a young man. Well, I couldn't help myself. And I switched then at that point from baseball pursuits back to hockey because that summer, right before I went to Iowa, a hockey coach had come to my hometown to try to recruit me. And I had actually given him verbal assent that I would play on his hockey team, teach in his hockey school that August. And of course I just went. went to the US without telling him. I kind of just forgot about him. And so I showed up at the hockey rink the night before the camp started and I went to his office and he was mopping the floor of his own office. This is Canadian junior hockey. It's what all young Canadians want to do with the hopes of moving up and eventually getting drafted. And he goes, LaClare, what are you doing here? He said, you sort of stiffed me and you left town. I read in the newspaper that you received this scholarship to go play baseball and you didn't even tell me. And I just felt horrible that he was right. And as he was, and then he says, you're going to have to fight and kick and scratch your way onto this team, just like everybody else. No more special treatment. Cause he had come with all these promises like we'll pay for your room and bore. You'll be able to go to university later and play hockey. These promises coaches will make. And because I skipped town, he wasn't very happy. And just as he said that, you're going to have to fight and scratch and kick your way onto this team, just like everybody else. He knocked over the water bucket that he had been putting his mop in to clean his own office. And he took the Lord's name in vain. Well, normally that wouldn't have meant anything to me because I took the Lord's name in vain all the time, the name of Jesus in vain. And when he said it, it was like something cut me in two, like I almost started crying in his office. I was that tender to the things of God at that time. And I don't think I even said anything. I just turned around and left. I was just really upset because of all these events. And I went to my sister's place about a mile away from the hockey rink. She was a school teacher in that city, had the key to her home and got on my knees in her living room and just completely surrendered to the Lord. I wish I could. Maybe one day in heaven I'll be able to hear what I prayed, but just something gushed out of me, this prayer of repentance and of turning to Jesus like fully, irrevocably. I was bawling and I didn't exactly know what it would mean, but I was, I had known my mom's faith, my sister's faith, and I was surrendering all to Christ. And my sister came in, I didn't hear her come in. I looked over my shoulder and she started crying and I said, what are you crying about? She said, well, I haven't been walking with the Lord as I should and I just have been witnessing what you've been doing here and I'm, I'm surrendering to Christ to a fresh and we're the best of friends. She's 10 years older than me, but she's a very godly sister. And, that was kind of the beginning of my personalized spiritual journey. When I really came to that place of full surrender. repentance, saying to Jesus, you can be the master and Lord of my life forever. So there it is. with your coach when you took the Lord's name in vain, was that sort of like the last straw for you or just maybe like a spark that brought your heart to really repent before the Lord? Like what was going on there? I had so much, like my ladder was so much against the wall of athletics, both baseball and hockey, that I just thought that's what I want to do. And if something with athletics doesn't work out, I'll be a sports writer. That was my objective. I think I have that on Meet the Prof, that if you weren't a professor, what would you do? It would be to be a sports writer. I thought that'd be just the perfect job. And I think when he said that, the way it just sort of impacted me. the weight of the name of Jesus, that here he is saying it as a curse. But for me, I had actually read my Bible for several years, intermittently. I was really a seeker on one hand, just this real battle going on for my soul. And I think when he said that, I just thought, this is a point of decision. What am I gonna do about Jesus and his name? And at that point, I knew I needed to just surrender. And even though I left the hockey arena in tumult with all this disequilibrium going on in my heart and mind, I knew something was about to happen. And I guess when I walked to my sister's home, it was like just this real wooing from God, like, join me. I'm inviting you to be my son, my child. And so it was like a coming home of sorts. I'm glad I surrendered in that moment. Definitely. Wow. And how special that your family could be so involved in that process and this blessed relationship with your one sister. You were really ministering to her too. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. What were some of your early years like as a Christian? Do you remember some things that really helped you start growing in your faith? Was there ever a big opportunity to take a step of faith to trust God with something hard? Yeah, I think one of the first things was I went to this church, a Bible-believing church, for the first time in my life. And I remember I didn't know anybody. It had a large college-age group, which ends up being very meaningful to me because I was a college student. I ended up getting back into the university where I had started my first year because I'd gone to the U.S. as a sophomore, although I... complicated, don't need to go into all those details about where I was academically. But I went to this church that had a lot of college age students. But I remember the pastor using the phrase in a sermon that Jesus is God. And even though from my religious tradition, we believe that we would always say Jesus is the Son of God. But when he said Jesus is God, kind of, it almost felt cultic to me like, what do mean Jesus is God? He's the Son of God. I hadn't really come to grips with the deity of Christ, know, what we call the hypostatic union, fully God, fully man. I knew he was the son of God, but when he said it, it was like, yeah, Jesus is God. It's clear that he is. And that struck me. And then another was reading about Billy Graham in his younger years when he was just moving toward full-time preaching. And I'm going to quote him here. He says, laid my open Bible on the stump of a tree, good old farm boy, and prayed. He says, Lord, I don't understand everything in this book, but I accept it by faith as the word of the living God. And I can truly say that since that moment, I've never doubted that the Bible is the word of God. So this theology proper, Jesus is God and his word is true. It was like when I read that quote from Billy Graham, not that I remember these big battles intellectually with the veracity of scripture, but realizing, am I gonna base my life and my worldview on this book, on scriptures? And I realized that like Billy Graham, I can have a lot of answers and I can have a lot of confidence in it, but ultimately there's this trust factor. I don't really like the concept, especially in the world of academia of of blind faith, but certainly faith is trusting what you do not see, right? And so I wanted to exercise my faith by sort of driving in a stake on those two important issues of who is Jesus? Is he really God and our Redeemer? Sinless, perfect. And are the scriptures reliable? So those two things, probably within my first month of being a believer, Yeah. of anchored me. And then of course fellowship and getting involved in Christian ministry on campus, that sort of thing. One of my first, I think your next question was, did you take a step of faith? Or was it an early step of faith that you had to take? So I met this guy with Cru back then, Campus Crusade for Christ up in Canada. Now it's called Power to Change up there. But I was taken on a Saturday day of evangelism out sharing our faith. And I was horrified. But I remember sharing the gospel with this guy. And I think he was six foot five or six foot six. And I was looking for like a little person, you know, maybe less physically intimidating to share with because I'm not a big guy. And I kind of sped read the four spiritual laws with the staff guy next to me. And he was I could tell he was kind of wanting to jump in and maybe make some corrections. And I get to the prayer and this guy wanted to receive Christ. Well, my friend on staff could not believe that anyone would want to receive Christ after that kind of presentation, like just nervously reading through it and hoping something would stick. And the guy said, yeah, I want to receive Christ. Well, my friend sort of took over and... kind of talked him out of it, like you can't possibly understand because of Denis's presentation. And I didn't object because I thought, yeah, like, what do I know? I just sort of stumbled through it. I don't expect it either. And then later I met with that guy several times and he never did trust Christ. And my friend said, I probably should have just let him pray because who knows, maybe something was going on there. And I said, well, that's okay. I mean, God knows. And then shortly after that, I'll tell one more story. I'm praying with another staff guy on my campus. These guys are named Jeff and Nathan, wonderful guys. Nathan is still on staff with Cru up in Canada. And we prayed to go sharing, just go to do random evangelism. And I lifted up my head after we prayed and a buddy of mine is walking up to me. And the bus stop was right outside and we were on a bench right near the doors. And he said, hey, Denis. What are you doing? And this guy, we went through all of our schooling together. Now we're in university together. We had played on sports teams together. He grew up a couple blocks from me, like one of my closest friends, same religious upbringing as me. I think we had our first communion confirmation together. He says, what are you guys up to? And I was just overcome with fear. And I said, oh, like we're just kind of hanging out on campus, just kind of hanging out. And my friend on staff looked at me like horrified, like, what are you doing? We just prayed that God would lead us to someone to share our faith, but I just didn't want any of it. I just wanted my friend to go away and my staff got to not confront me about cowardice, right? So he leaves. So my friend and I go share with somebody. I kid you not, week two, same time, same place, praying on that bench, same guy comes up, hey. Same. what are up to? I'm just waiting for that same bus to go home. I did the same thing. I denied Christ like, we're just kind of hanging out. And this time, my friend is like doubly concerned about my, you know, lying to this non-Christian friend of mine. So the third week comes along and I pray this prayer, Lord, we're going to go sharing it. If my friend comes by, even if it kills me, I'm going to share with him. And my friend is kind of laughing and he knows I'm struggling. He's being gracious with me, but I'm like, this is bad. I don't want to be like Peter denying him three times, in this case, three weeks in a row. We finished praying. I look up, he's standing by the door. Must've been the winter time, waiting for his bus to come out of this U-shaped cul-de-sac to catch his bus. I said, hey, Nathan, there he is. Let's go talk to him. So we go up to him and I said, hey, I won't use his name here in case one day he's. watching this podcast, but I said, I guess that wouldn't matter. But I said, Hey, the last two weeks you asked what we were doing and what we were doing actually is going out talking to fellow students about our faith. And you probably heard through the grapevine that I become a follower of Jesus. He goes, yeah, everybody knows. And like half the town is kind of mocking you. And I said, well, we've got this little booklet and would you be open to just sitting down with us and giving us your feedback? He said, sure. Why not? We sit down, we have just this fantastic conversation about faith. And, you know, he never trusted Christ at that point, but I just realized, you know, God had prepared him for us and yet I was fearful of what people would think. And so that was a real solid lesson. I'm sure I've missed many opportunities over my 30 plus years of walking with the Lord, but I don't remember overtly denying him the way I did in those early days. And that was just, I think, a lesson. from the Lord to be faithful, to trust him. I love Dr. Bright's definition of successful witnessing, to take the initiative in the power of the Holy Spirit and leave the results to God. And I think I wasn't exactly trusting in the power of the Holy Spirit at that time. ah But interestingly, shortly after that, I went to a local bookstore and I got Bill Bright's, I didn't even know who Bill Bright was, but I found a book, one of the transferable concepts, How to Share Your Faith, thin little book. New Believer. No one in Cru had told me about this little booklet. just saw it. I didn't know who Bill Bright was. Got this book and I decided to start a Bible study training people based on what I had just freshly been learning. Like I was like one chapter ahead of them. And God brought 16 other students into that Bible study. I was 17. So I would go with I would be the third person in our weekly pairings of two to go talk to people. And I share that story with them. Like, look, I've blown it. I've been afraid of my own friends. It's easier to share with a college student who you don't even know than people from your hometown that you do know. And that started this ministry of helping to equip others. And we would go out every week for an entire semester and just, and all of us, it was like our first time sharing the gospel. And it was just a really fun and rich time. Like even though I was kind of stumbling forward in my ability to share. I knew it was important and I knew that what Jesus claimed and what he offered was true and that we needed to be involved in helping to fulfill the Great Commission. so those were some really great early memories and some lifetime friendships with those people who sort of cut their teeth in this ragtag group of us sharing our faith on our local university. Definitely. So, I would think that any listener who is a believer can relate with what it's like to feel like you've got an opportunity, God's given an opportunity to show your faith and we chicken out. So, I can certainly relate with that. And that is hilarious that you had it almost like a story. It is like Peter's story of one week, then the second week, and then the third week and you have that opportunity. So, thanks for sharing that. yeah, what? Well, what an exciting beginning as a new Christian for you to not only take these steps eventually to tell people about Jesus, but then you training these others to do that too. Do you think like God was putting something on your heart even then to be involved in long-term ministry? Do you look back at that as being like some seeds were planted? You know, I just thought when I became a believer, I'll go through four years of university. was studying to be a teacher, doing a bachelor's education. I'll live in my hometown or a neighboring town. I'll coach hockey, I'll coach baseball, I'll coach whatever local sport they need. You know, I thought about sports writing, but I eventually decided to take education. And when that staff member the first person that took me sharing, not Nathan, but Jeff, when we went out and shared the gospel that day, I remember saying to myself, I think I've done one of the more difficult things you're asked to do as a believer, to share your faith. You it's not martyrdom, it's not suffering, it's not hardship, but it's still hard. It's hard to go out there. And I think many people have this great fear of of evangelism. So I think after that first time I thought, well, I can do that. Hopefully not in my own strength, as I often do, but I can do that with God's help, with God's strength, with God's words. And so I think a seed was there, like, I could do this. And I don't remember hearing some major, you know, calling, you need to come and work with in full-time ministry. But it was just this strong growing conviction that as I approach graduation and a summer project in Canada on Vancouver Island, very secular part of British Columbia. That summer project was also just amazing with 40, I think 42 others, think 40 Canadians and two international students were on this summer project together. Just such a rich summer. And I kind of came away, it was my last semester. I actually finished my degree by taking four courses at the University of Victoria and then did an internship in a high school for the next four months. And then when I finished that internship, was like, just feels natural to join staff with Campus Crusade and obviously do that for over 30 years. So yeah, I think seeds were sown during that time, even though for me, I always sort of took it one year at a time and My view of kind of a full-time calling, I fully respect those who say, yeah, I'm going to do this specific ministry till I die. For me, it was more, Lord, I want to always be a part of kingdom building, of helping to fulfill the great commission. If that's as a teacher, a sports writer, a farmer, I grew up on a farm, or a missionary, I'm all in. I'll just trust you to lead me. And of course I've had a career change where now I'm a professor, but. That's kind of how, I approach it, more as you go, make disciples. Of course, there is a, therefore, go to Uruguay, where my wife and I served, or specific countries. I'm all for that, for sure. seeds were certainly planted to let Jesus use me and be available in whatever vocation He might call me to. Yeah. So, Denis, tell me how did you make the move from being vocationally a full-time Christian worker to being a full-time Christian worker in a vocation as a faculty member? Because I agree with you that we're called as we go, no matter what our job or our paychecks come from, that we... we're to glorify God and we can glorify God and whatever he's called us to do. Yeah, was a really interesting story. My wife and I were both full-time staff. We've been involved, as many of us are, in different ministries. We actually came to the US to train our staff as missionaries in the old AIT Agape International Training, and that gave birth to X-Track, where I think I met you, ah Is that right? Yeah, where we continued to train missionaries. And then we got involved with International Student Ministry. So we were working with Bridges and, My wife was asked to teach linguistics at a local college. She switched to part-time feeling like that's a season that the Lord had her to do. And one night, I think she was teaching at two different colleges and a university. And one night she came home from the university and said, hey, they're looking for someone to be an adjunct for a six-week course in history. Well, that was my major, but I didn't have a master's or doctoral degree in it. But I was, I believe at that time working on my PhD. So I applied and they, They hired me. think I had a real passion for history and I got permission from Cru to sort of do that like sort of episodically one at a time because there's tax issues. We didn't want to break any rules. And when I finished my PhD, someone from that school contacted me and said, I think you should apply for this job. Interestingly, it was the program director and a three quarter time professor in sociology, which would give me that quarter time to stay on part time staff with Bridges. Well, I really sought the Lord about that and felt like he wanted me to do that. And I remembered a story that that same season when I was just learning to share my faith, I was either a first or second, I guess a second year student at the University of Saskatchewan. I was taking a sociology class. And while the professor was teaching, it was really odd. It was like a bird flew over my head and just dropped a little note that said to me, you will teach this one day. Ooh. It's just really odd experience. uh I don't necessarily want to call it a conviction, but this thought that certainly came from somewhere. I was a believer and I thought, that's interesting. And I just kind of tucked it away like sociology. Didn't think about it at all. Didn't take any more sociology courses at the bachelor's, master's or doctoral level. My PhD is in intercultural education. So I said to this professor from this university, said, well, I've only taken one sociology course in my life. And it was as an undergraduate student. He said, yeah, but you have a very strong interdisciplinary background. You've done so much stuff in your life, like really interesting cross-cultural things. We have a very diverse student body. You speak Spanish. We have a lot of Hispanic students. We're a Hispanic student institution here in California. And he sort of convinced me to apply. And when my interview, I was very honest with my poser syndrome. Like I'm not, I don't have any expertise in this area, but I sort of focused more on my interdisciplinary stuff. And they said, no, like there's a lot of sociology, religion classes. There's a lot of classes that we feel like you would really be a quick study to be able to adopt. And so I spent the next four years as a program director in sociology, maintaining my part-time status. So when I switched from full-time Cru to part-time, My wife switched from part-time professor back to full-time Cru. She was feeling this increasing desire to be more involved in full-time ministry. And she did that with Bridges for several years. And now she's an international sending coordinator, which she does very well at, loves it, loves the people she works with. So we both are still involved in the Great Commission from a bit of a different perspective. And we try to overlap in ministry with international student ministry. A lot of it happens right here in our home. So my part-time status does both some Faculty Commons ministry as well as some international student ministry. And it's been really fun and adventuresome to see how the Lord redirects us and guides us. We're both very fulfilled and happy in what we're doing. We'll pause right there. And have you ever seen God redirect you in some way that was surprising and then you could really see goodness from it afterwards? We'd encourage you, if you're a professor listening to this and you have seen Christ work in your life, saving you and continuing to save you, would you share your testimony on meettheprof.com? It's a great way for students to find you. It can encourage parents and even it'll encourage other faculty to see you sharing some of God's work in your life that way. And would you please remember to click on subscribe or follow if you're watching this on YouTube, listening to Spotify, Apple podcasts, that helps us get the word out more and it doesn't cost anything. And lastly, if you would like to give financially to our ministry with Faculty Commons, thank you very much. You can give online at give.cru.org / 0 42 43 44. Stay tuned for next week when you'll hear part two of our interview with Denis. And until then, I hope this encourages you to have a Christ-centered conversation on your college campus.