MTP 29: Karen Petersen PART 1, Bringing one's whole self into leadership & getting criticism for it.

Dr. Karen Petersen is the president of Hendrix College. We discuss Dr. Petersen's embarrassing moment at her college graduation, her difficult childhood, and her transformation through encountering God's grace. She shares how her faith has influenced her leadership and the role of community in her spiritual growth. She talks about the importance of servant leadership and she encourages leaders to bring their whole selves to their roles and not separate their faith from their work. She shares her perspective on being a public believer and the pushback she has received, but emphasizes that it is small compared to what God has done in her life.

Read about Karen on MeetTheProf.com: https://meettheprof.com/view/professors/entry/karen-petersen/

Watch Karen's Extended Personal Testimony through the Open Arms ministry at MTSU: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UEXPl1YGQ

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Transcript

Shane (00:00)

Hey everyone and welcome back to Meet the Prof. My name is Shane Hartley and my friend Spence Hackney and I have the privilege of taking questions from college students and asking them to college professors. And we are so grateful that you've joined us now. Thank you for listening in. And our goal with the podcast is to encourage Christ -centered conversations on the college campus. So you will get to hear our interview today with Dr. Karen Petersen.

And Dr. Petersen is the president at Hendrix College. And she starts with telling us her own embarrassing moment in college, which actually happened at her college graduation. She's also very transparent about her difficult childhood and how that really shaped her into being the kind of person and leader that she is today. I especially appreciated how candid she was and transparent

about some regrets that she has in her relationship with her dad. So I think you'll be very inspired by this. And before we get going, I have a few requests. One is, would you please take a second and click to subscribe or follow or like, however you're listening to this on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, on YouTube or any other. That really helps to spread the word even more to college students and other professors. And if you are a college student,

would you find us on MeetTheProf.com and actually look up a Christian professor that'd be on your campus or one nearby you? And would you also find us on Instagram and follow us on Instagram? You can keep updated with new interviews and even submit your own questions. So, well, let's get started. Here is our interview with Dr. Karen Petersen.

Shane & Spence (01:51)

Well, Karen, it is such a joy to get this time with you. think Spence and I have been really excited to talk with you. You're the first college president we've got to interview. So we feel very honored that you would do this at the beginning of your school year also. So thanks. How are you doing?

Karen Petersen (02:00)

you

Wonderful. mean, students are coming back and the campus is coming alive again. It's my favorite time of the year.

Shane & Spence (02:14)

Mmm, mine, too. Well you said something on MeetTheProf.com I gotta ask you about. You said that your favorite dinner guest, you had several favorite dinner guests, but one of them was Taylor Swift. So why did you say Taylor Swift?

Karen Petersen (02:25)

Right.

Well, I put together a dinner party. So I tried to pick people that would be interesting around the table together. And I thought, yeah, that was, that was part of the motivation, but also I would just love to have a conversation with her. She's an incredible business person, but I don't know much about her personally, other than the fact that she probably has a pretty difficult time. And it would just be interesting to sit down with her and talk about how she manages.

Shane & Spence (02:33)

Take care.

Mm. Yeah, yeah.

Karen Petersen (02:53)

the pressure and the constant negativity that is thrown at her all the time as a young woman. I have a lot of admiration for her, but I'd love to just dig in a little bit and hear how she deals with that and maybe learn a little bit more about her. I think she's interesting.

Shane & Spence (02:58)

Yeah.

I would love to hear the conversation between CS Lewis and her. What do you think that would go down like, would CS Lewis talk to Taylor Swift across the table?

Karen Petersen (03:13)

huh.

I mean, think it'd be great. I think he would end up in her next album. mean, he would influence her work in a way that maybe no one else could because he was pretty real. I mean, that's the thing I love about C .S. Lewis is that there was no varnish on that. That was the real truth and that would definitely influence her. It would be a fascinating conversation.

Shane & Spence (03:22)

Hahaha!

Yeah.

Yeah, and...

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's true because he was pop culture at the time too. Like he was a, had the level of notoriety. They could have a dialogue around that too. Interesting. Yeah.

Karen Petersen (03:45)

Right.

Yeah, you see that with some of other people I put at the table, although some are less well known.

Shane & Spence (03:54)

Yeah, I did some Googling. I learned a little bit about your dinner table. There was one or two on there I had not met before. It was great. Thanks for that. Yeah. And so this is one thing. I mean, you're, you were, you were the big kahuna there at the school, you know, and all the, all the students are looking at you doing, are you a real person? And so to help us get to know you a little better, tell us a little more about the embarrassing, most embarrassing moment you had in college.

Karen Petersen (03:56)

Yeah. Good.

Mm

So like when I do something, I do it big, okay? So the most, I it's just, I laugh about it now, but when I graduated and walked across that stage, I was the first person in my family to ever do that. It was a big deal. I was the first college graduate. And so my whole family was there. Yeah, it was huge for us. And I was so excited, not in the sense of, I'm finally done and I'm getting out of here, but I can't believe I'm doing this.

Shane & Spence (04:22)

I like this already. great.

You were the first college graduate out of your family. Really?

Hmm.

Karen Petersen (04:47)

And so I go marching across the stage. I think I was on an end row or something like that in the seats. And this was at MTSU. was even back then was a pretty big graduation. And I go off that stage and I just go barreling down through the rows the way I wanted to go. Well, it was totally the wrong way. Like they had, they told us what to do, but I didn't hear anything because I was so wrapped up in the moment. And the kid behind me got totally

Shane & Spence (04:51)

Yeah.

Ha ha.

Karen Petersen (05:10)

confused and he went the right way and everyone else followed him and I went my own way, which was shorter and easier frankly and ended up back in the right place. But yeah, they have it on video, me walking the wrong way at graduation. We still talk about it. Family still gives me a hard time.

Shane & Spence (05:17)

You

Does that say something about your personality that you went your own way, which was more efficient than the process? I love it.

Karen Petersen (05:28)

huh.

Yep, it does. It says a lot about my administrative work as well. But also, you know, once I was committed, was in, I wasn't going to turn around and then try to fix it halfway through.

Shane & Spence (05:34)

Yeah.

Yeah.

So let's dial back follow up to your family influence. You were first generation. I think I read somewhere your family's Danish. And so were they new to the country or had they been in the US for a while?

Karen Petersen (05:45)

Mm

Yes.

Well, my dad's side of the family is from Denmark. So my dad was born into German occupied Denmark and they came over here when he was seven, I think. So, you he spent his early childhood in an, in an occupied country in World War II. And that had a big influence. That was not easy. A big influence on who he became ultimately and some positive ways and also some negative ways. So they arrived here in 1947, pretty much penniless and built a life.

Shane & Spence (05:57)

Wow.

Okay, okay.

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Wow. Wow. Well, it sounded like from your childhood, you grew up with a lot of pain and you shared very transparently on MeetTheProf I think it's where I read that, even didn't grow up experiencing much love. I think a lot of college students can relate with a difficult childhood.

Karen Petersen (06:33)

Mm

Shane & Spence (06:42)

How can you look back now and see God's presence at all in your life early on?

Karen Petersen (06:50)

Well, let me, let me say, I think my parents did the best they could. Right. And so when I say that it's not because I think they were somehow neglectful or, or bad people, was just the circumstances weren't great. God's hand had to be there or I wouldn't be sitting here today. Cause there's no way I would have survived the, the, you consider childhood all the way up through your adult years, which mine ended much earlier than that. I wouldn't have made it through it without God. know someone out there was praying for us.

Shane & Spence (06:53)

Mm -hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm. Hmm.

Hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Karen Petersen (07:18)

There's just no way for all four of us to kind of come through this the way we have. It is nothing short of a miracle. So God's hand was there, but I couldn't see it. As a child, I couldn't see it. And in hindsight, you know, there may be little glimpses here and there, but for the most part, it felt pretty void. And there were people in our lives who tried to help us, but there were few and far between.

Shane & Spence (07:28)

Hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Karen Petersen (07:44)

it shaped who I am in a way. I have moments where I think, what would it have been like to have been normal and to have had the normal opportunities that I see young people have? What could I have done? But I wouldn't be who I am without that. And I think there's some value in that.

Shane & Spence (07:51)

Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Is there anything you feel comfortable telling us, specifically a memory of when it was so hard as a kid?

Karen Petersen (08:10)

You know, it was a violent home. And so we, my siblings and I saw things that we never should have had to see. It was just not, was, was not good. And, and a lot of times I think about the fact that I can have some of the courage I have now and demonstrate that courage in really difficult times in leadership.

Shane & Spence (08:16)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Karen Petersen (08:30)

Some of that comes from the fact that it's hard to ruffle me. Like you're to have a hard time getting me upset or off balance given what I went through as a child. And I'm, you I don't, I don't recommend that as the path. There's going to be a healthier way to develop that kind of courage, but I think it, I think it matters. And I think it influenced my ability to, to stand in tough, really tough moments. I mean, this is a hard time for higher education and leadership. If you've read anything about college presidencies in the last year.

Shane & Spence (08:34)

Hmm, really? Yeah. Yeah.

Really?

Karen Petersen (09:00)

There are a lot of articles about who would want that job. Why would anyone in their right mind do that job? Well, it's a hard job. It's wonderfully rewarding and gratifying, but it takes a lot of courage these days.

Shane & Spence (09:02)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, what's your relationship like with your parents as an adult given that childhood?

Karen Petersen (09:20)

It's, mean, my, I lost my father to suicide in 2019. and my, and that relationship, thank you. mean, it was traumatic. That relationship was a little broken at the time and I regret it. And I will just tell you that that was a, of the turning point for, for me in terms of trauma and also understanding that God really does know what he's doing. So God, I needed to call my father and it was clear.

Shane & Spence (09:25)

Sorry.

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Hmm.

Karen Petersen (09:48)

God made that very clear to me. I hadn't talked to him in a long time. I mean, I needed to call him. And I said, no. Like I just said, I'm not doing it. And I didn't do it. And then it was that week or the following week, we lost him to suicide. And so when I said no to God intentionally in that moment, and it was a powerful lesson. So I didn't get a chance to heal that relationship, but I have a good relationship with my mother.

Shane & Spence (09:54)

Hmm

Hmm.

Hmm.

Good.

Karen Petersen (10:17)

And I see she ... she doesn't... she's only a couple of hours from here. So yeah.

Shane & Spence (10:20)

really? I see a lot of courage in you acknowledging the fact that you said no to God and there were repercussions. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's, let's talk about time when you said yes to Christ. I know a little bit about your salvation story, but tell us what Christ did in your life. And now he brought you from that kind of period of brokenness.

Karen Petersen (10:28)

Yeah, I mean, I don't want anyone else to do that. Don't do that. Don't make that mistake because I regret it.

Mm

Shane & Spence (10:48)

end up maybe some level of wholeness with him.

Karen Petersen (10:51)

You know, it's really hard to describe the transformation. So if you had known me before, was, you know, I mean, I wasn't the worst person in the world, but I was pretty mean and jaded and I don't know. just wasn't, I was, it was hard. I was a hard person.

Shane & Spence (11:04)

Mm.

Karen Petersen (11:10)

And I was antagonistic. was particularly antagonistic toward Christians. I was raised to be that way. And so that was one of my favorite pastimes, irritating people who called themselves Christians. And I thought I kind of had it figured out, but I thought the whole thing was on me. Like it's all on you. You're on your own. I've been on my own for a long time. I mean, I left home when I was 15. So I'd been kind of doing it myself for a long time at that point. And then I didn't know anything about grace.

Shane & Spence (11:14)

Hmm.

Mm

Karen Petersen (11:38)

I had no concept of the fact that this thing existed and it was available to me. And when I discovered that, I talk a little bit about that in another video about my testimony, when I discovered that in that very moment, it was like the weight of the world was lifted off my shoulders. I mean, that's what it felt like physically. And did I get it all right every single time after that moment? No, like every day that my feet hit the floor, I messed up somehow, some way, but

Shane & Spence (11:38)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Karen Petersen (12:05)

It is an incredible transformation and it's an ongoing one too. think that's something maybe young people need to hear. Like you are not the person you're going to be. You are in the early stages of that transformation and Christ will continue to change your life and change you and shape you and mold you and prepare you for whatever it is that's coming. Because God knows what that is. You don't, but God does.

Shane & Spence (12:13)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah. I love what you said about grace was a new concept for me. We forget that as Christians sometimes. This is a foreign concept.

Karen Petersen (12:35)

absolutely. Cause we don't give it to people either all the time. Right? Like that is something about Christians that if I could change any one thing, would probably be, could you just, just, just give a little more grace to people? Cause we have a hard time and the world is hard. Right. And it's, it's frustrating sometimes and it's easier to default to a position of criticism, right. Instead of grace. It's just easier.

Shane & Spence (12:40)

Hmm.

Yeah

Mm -hmm.

Yeah. I need to hear that. I think we all need to hear that today. don't. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Have you been able to have these conversations with your mom? Who? Okay. Yeah.

Karen Petersen (13:04)

I think everyone needs to hear that.

A little bit. Yeah, a little bit. She's not much of a conversationalist, I have to say. But, you know, we try to show her love in a way that resonates with her.

Shane & Spence (13:17)

Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Did she notice, were you close enough that she could see the change in you when this happened?

Karen Petersen (13:29)

yes, actually. I remember one time her, she came to visit our, visit us in Tennessee. And I remember when she was leaving, she said something about how peaceful our home was. And it wasn't peaceful because it wasn't noisy. Like I had kids, it was always noisy, but there was a peace there that she had never, I think, experienced. And she knew what, why that existed. She made that comment and was able to connect that.

Shane & Spence (13:30)

Okay.

Mm

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Wow. Has she shown any openness now to Jesus?

Karen Petersen (14:02)

Yes, she has. And it's interesting because one of the great things that God has done, just like going to college changed my family and other people then did those things-- my sister and my nieces, other people are now pursuing education-- God has moved through my family that way, not entirely and not completely, but in really remarkable ways. It's been a beautiful thing to watch. Painfully slow because it's not my timing. I think everyone should have immediately done it as soon as I did.

Shane & Spence (14:15)

Yeah.

Mm.

Mm

Karen Petersen (14:30)

But it's, God does his thing. We just have to let him. We have to get out of the way sometimes.

Shane & Spence (14:30)

Mm -hmm. -hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. I love how you acknowledge this is God's thing. This is his doing. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. You came to Christ when you were 32. And by the way, you, so for the listeners, I'm going to put a link to the video you referred to that you recorded when you were at Middle Tennessee State University. So in the description of the podcast, there'll be a link to that powerful video of your story. tell me,

Karen Petersen (14:40)

yeah, absolutely.

Shane & Spence (15:04)

what it's been like since you came to Christ later in life, and specifically, like, what has been any catalyst for change or a turning point of real spiritual growth in your life since then?

Karen Petersen (15:19)

There have been so many. So I had the great fortune of being in a really good church when that happened. in many ways, the people in that church praying for me, think, really flipped the switch, if you will. And so I had lot of opportunity to learn and grow. I was thinking about it this morning on the way in. I spent years doing children's ministry in third grade because I never got that. So it took me years to get the whole.

Shane & Spence (15:21)

Hmm.

That's great.

Karen Petersen (15:43)

the kids ministry thing. so I would learn with these kids. But when I started, I started with middle school kids and college kids. And I realized pretty quickly, I don't have the maturity to be discipling these kids. I need to go down to a few grades and kind of get it. And so God kind of put me in places and not just the church, even at MTSU with the Open Arms group and some of the faculty members, they are just pillars of

Shane & Spence (15:44)

Yeah. That's great.

Karen Petersen (16:07)

faith in the classroom and on campus and being led and guided by those people on that campus that helped shape me into who I am. And then I mentioned, you know, 2019 and my father's death and that kind of moment with God. But then there was this whole period of what I consider exile for about two years. And I got to the point and I just wasn't in a community at all. And I was at this point where I just

Shane & Spence (16:24)

Mm -hmm.

Karen Petersen (16:36)

All I was doing was clinging. I was clinging to God. was all I could do was just hang on because I figured there's got to be a reason. And there was. I didn't know it at the time and there was. But all I could do was just hang on. And that's why in that Meet the Prof website, you the one thing I say is you have to know some things. You have to know some scripture. You have to have some things so internalized that when nothing else is there, you've got something. You've got something to hang on to. So I don't think there's any there's there's not one other than

Shane & Spence (16:38)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Mm

Karen Petersen (17:05)

salvation that's pivotal. There are all these moments where God just keeps moving me from place to place in this sort of plan that I can't see until I'm already halfway through. It's amazing. mean, God's amazing if you will let Him give it up, give up, concede control of your life a little bit and see what He does. It's incredible.

Shane & Spence (17:15)

Yeah.

Is that hard for you as a imagine you're kind of driven and Type A, and so there's a little bit of struggle between your plan and God's plan. How do you balance that?

Karen Petersen (17:28)

yeah.

You know, it's funny, I have this tendency to want to manage everything, you know, the small things in life. I like to manage those things. I like to kind of have some sense of control over them. But when it comes to the big stuff, I don't. Like I already know, like I would have never imagined in a million years I would be sitting here on this college campus as the president of a college. Never, it was never in my plan.

Shane & Spence (17:43)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Nah.

Karen Petersen (18:03)

It was never my plans to do many of the great things that I've been able to do. So I don't really have as much of a problem with saying, I don't know where I'll be in five or 10 years because it's not up to me. The day -to -day stuff though, like I want it on my schedule, right? So that's where I struggle a little bit with the day -to -day and letting go of those moments where I may miss, I probably miss opportunities because I'm so focused on controlling the day, but not the big picture.

Shane & Spence (18:05)

Hmm

Yeah.

mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Mmm.

Karen Petersen (18:30)

I already, I learned that lesson already and I don't want to be the one in charge because I don't do a very good job.

Shane & Spence (18:34)

That's a bold statement too, coming from a leader. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm curious, Karen, of your decision to take the job as president at Hendrix, was that a particular step of faith for you? Were there a lot of mixed factors involved there? What was that like for you spiritually?

Karen Petersen (18:36)

Well, I'm in charge of my own destiny. Let me clarify that.

Mm

It was interesting. I was interviewing for other jobs. I had another job offer even. And when I came here, I met the people here, I knew this was the place. They didn't, I don't even know if they knew it yet, but I knew it was the place. It like, this is the place. I don't know. I mean, I just, there was just something about the place that I could feel that was...

Shane & Spence (19:07)

Mmm.

Hmm. What was it?

Hmm.

Karen Petersen (19:20)

it just connected and clicked and intriguing. And this is my home state, right? So there's some of that, the ability to come back and really serve my home state. And I was already closer to my family by that point. I was living in Tulsa at that point. So, you know, this didn't really change that equation, but I don't know. I just knew and I met these people and there's some incredible people on this campus and they're just, doing, they're doing great work because they love these young people. And so to be a part of that and to really help.

Shane & Spence (19:24)

Yeah.

Mm.

Karen Petersen (19:48)

lead this institution in the future, it's a privilege. So it's kind of a wishy -washy answer, but there was just a feeling. I just knew.

Shane & Spence (19:51)

Mm -hmm.

Sounds like it was just like the next step, like after years of following the Lord, it helped you probably to make this decision.

Karen Petersen (19:59)

Yeah.

Yeah, it was an easy decision. I mean, it really was. It was an easy decision. It's been a tough job, though. I mean, I will tell you, it is just a tough job. But I'm glad I'm here. Every day I get up and I'm glad I get to come to this campus.

Shane & Spence (20:05)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm. Hmm.

Yeah. Wow. I'd like to talk a little more about that tough job because I don't recall previous times in history where college professors appeared before, or college leaders appeared before Congress. You know, now we've got, you're kind of a lightning rod like never before. It's one of maybe the hardest leadership environments I can imagine. And I think if I understand Hendrix is not a, mean, it's historically Methodist, but there's no current Christian influence in the system.

Karen Petersen (20:28)

Yeah.

Mm

No, I would say not. I mean, we're affiliated with the United Methodist Church.

Shane & Spence (20:46)

Yeah, but it... Right. Okay. And what's it like to lead as a Christian? Like how did your faith affect you in these situations? Do you do it differently because you're a Christian? Tell us more about that. I'm fascinated.

Karen Petersen (21:02)

Yeah. I mean, you wouldn't want the old me leading you. mean, not because I was, I mean, it's not a matter of competence, but my heart wouldn't have been in the right place. And so when I come to this place, I come to this place to serve. And I mean that, like I am here to serve alongside these faculty and staff here to make this institution a better place for the young people in the state and in the region.

Shane & Spence (21:05)

Yeah.

Okay.

Karen Petersen (21:28)

and help launch them into these fulfilling careers and lives. We essentially say that our job is to create students who go out and lead lives of accomplishment, integrity, service, and joy. Joy is not in the mission statement of very many places, and that was intriguing to me, And our motto is unto the whole person. And so we are really engaged in that work here in a way that...

Shane & Spence (21:29)

Mm -hmm.

Mm

Hmm.

Karen Petersen (21:54)

having been at other institutions is not true. It's not that there's anything wrong with those places. It's just not who they are. And so I lead with that in mind, but I lead with all my heart, right? And the old me would never have been able to do that. I wouldn't have had the courage to this job either.

Shane & Spence (21:59)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Is that servant leadership model atypical in higher education?

Karen Petersen (22:16)

You know, people talk about it a lot and you'll hear it a lot.

Shane & Spence (22:19)

Yeah.

Karen Petersen (22:19)

And some people do it definitely, but it's hard. It's hard to be the president and act out. I mean, you can say I'm a servant leader, but it's hard to be a president and actually lead that way. Takes intentionality. I won't always get it right. I mean, as I tell, I told the faculty and staff, I guess it was this week, I won't always, I won't get everything right and neither will you. And that's okay. Right. We'll be okay.

Shane & Spence (22:24)

Yeah.

Yeah

Yeah. Can you think of a situation, you can help us get in your shoes a little bit, where you were faced maybe with a decision as president that maybe you could have gone either way, but your faith really influenced what you ended up doing or deciding.

Karen Petersen (22:57)

I don't know that I could parse that out because it's such a part of who I am. It's just so, it's so much my DNA. But as I think about, you know, all the tough decisions that college presidents have to make, and they're just going to get more more difficult because, especially for residential liberal arts colleges, I mean, there are fewer 17 year olds now because of the decline in the birth rate. We have a massive demographic pressure facing our institutions and financial pressure is intense.

Shane & Spence (23:01)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Karen Petersen (23:25)

And so any and all of these decisions planning for the future are, you know, they're guided by the fact that I care about the people. I still have to make hard decisions that will negatively affect people's lives on occasion. But I'm going to do that with as much care and concern and grace as I can muster. that influences, I don't know, you can't separate it out.

Shane & Spence (23:32)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah. And you've had the courage to make it fairly public that you're a believer. Like I didn't have any trouble figuring this out with some little time with Google. Have you got any pushback from people you lead because of that in a liberal arts environment?

Karen Petersen (24:04)

I mean, maybe it's probably, right? But MTSU as a public institution gave me some freedom that I wouldn't have had at other institutions to be a little bit more real about who I was because I knew that they had a legal obligation, right? To respect that freedom and so that helped, but that doesn't mean that people weren't talking about it or upset about it. But I just, don't let it bother me.

Shane & Spence (24:17)

Okay.

yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Karen Petersen (24:30)

because that's so small compared to what God's done in my life. I can't spend my time worrying about that.

Shane & Spence (24:35)

Hmm.

I feel like I want to want to highlight and just underline what you're saying about being an integrated person and bringing your whole person to the job and not separating out your faith and kind of all the secular pieces of you. How do you even use that word? But all the other parts, mean, why do you think people find that so difficult? I think it's rare people bring themselves to the job like you're doing.

Karen Petersen (24:56)

Yeah.

It's difficult because it makes you vulnerable. And when you're in a leadership position, I mean, it doesn't matter what I do, you guys, it doesn't matter what I say or what I do, someone is criticizing it. I mean, it really makes no difference what it is. There is always going to be someone out there who finds a reason to pick apart or criticize what you're doing. And so there's a tendency to wear some armor. Brené Brown talks about this in Dare to Lead and some of other work. Like we want to armor up.

Shane & Spence (25:16)

Hmm.

Karen Petersen (25:30)

because we're just, get so beaten down by the criticism. And so I think that really is what inhibits people from being true to who they are is they just get tired of it and get beaten down. That's part of what I think I would talk to Taylor Swift about. Like, how do you deal with that? And as a young woman, how do you deal with that? Just the constant, constant beating that you take. And so mine is trivial compared to hers, but it is, it's true. There's a...

Shane & Spence (25:38)

Hmm.

Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Karen Petersen (25:57)

There's a real strong desire to just put up a wall or just insulate yourself from it because it's hard. But it's ultimately being effective. You can't do that. You can't lead people if you don't care enough to be vulnerable and open with them.

Shane & Spence (26:05)

Mm.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah. I haven't thought about it that way. You're saying that's the way to be most effective in your leadership.

Karen Petersen (26:19)

Mm -hmm. Yeah, I have found that to be true. And it's just easier for me to be that way too, because I don't have to constantly be on guard. But yeah, yeah.

Shane & Spence (26:26)

Yeah. Do you think, have you seen where some Christian professors may feel like they would be less effective, like if they let their students know that they're Christian?

Karen Petersen (26:38)

Maybe some of them feel that way. don't know. It's interesting because it's not like, I know there are some faculty members and I've seen this on maybe Faculty Commons who just start the semester with here's who I am and kind of lay it all out. That was never my approach. I never did it that way and it wasn't because I think it's wrong. It just didn't feel natural to me. But it was, I don't think students had a hard time figuring it out and they figure it out because you are different.

Shane & Spence (26:48)

Mm -mm -mm.

Mm

Hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Karen Petersen (27:03)

You respond differently to them when they have problems or troubles or questions than maybe other professors do. And that actually works pretty well if you're a faculty member. You don't have to be the one who starts the semester first day. You can. There's nothing wrong with it again. But you don't have to do that. There are many, many ways to share your faith. And it's been encouraging, I think, for Christian students too, in particular, because sometimes they feel pressure to kind of wear the t -shirts and...

Shane & Spence (27:08)

Mm -hmm

Hmm.

Mm

Karen Petersen (27:31)

proclaim loudly with the bullhorn and that's fine but that's not the only way to do it.

Shane & Spence (27:31)

Mm -hmm.

Did you have students that would come to you after seeing one of your videos, like a video interview or things like that, so they knew you were Christian that way?

Karen Petersen (27:42)

yeah. Yeah. Yes. And certainly, and I had students come to me who didn't know me otherwise, right? Or other people would send students. So I've had faculty members who weren't Christians at MTSU at least send students to me for counsel because they thought that they would get the counsel they needed from me and couldn't get it from them. I mean, yeah, well, it says a lot about them, right? That they're willing to do that. There's one remarkable instance where a

Shane & Spence (27:49)

wow.

This is a lot.

Mm

Karen Petersen (28:10)

Another faculty member who was not a Christian sent a young student to me who was pregnant. And, know, she had given her her counsel and she said, I want you to go see, I want you to go see Dr. Petersen because I think she's going to give you a different perspective on this. And I did. And, and that was, that made a difference.

Shane & Spence (28:15)

Hmm.

Really?

Really?

Yeah. Well, that's powerful.

Karen Petersen (28:27)

So that says, I think it says a lot more about that other faculty member frankly than it does me.

Shane & Spence (28:31)

Hmm. That seems like a very healthy environment that you're able to do that. I think we need more of that just in our world today.

Karen Petersen (28:35)

huh. Yeah.

Yes, we do and we're going to be working on that this year at this college in particular.

Shane & Spence (28:43)

And

Shane (28:45)

Well, I think Karen is just amazing. And we actually pause here and we'll have part two of the interview next week. We had to divide this in half because it's so good. And so stay tuned for part two. And before we close, if you would please remember to like, subscribe or follow this on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or YouTube, however you listen to it. And if you're a college student,

please find meettheprof.com and look for a college professor who follows Jesus. if you're a Christian professor listening to this, would you go on meettheprof.com and consider adding a profile there where you share some about your spiritual journey with

We would love to have your story there and maybe even interview you on the podcast. And lastly, if you're interested in financially supporting our ministry and outreach, you can give online at give.cru.org/0424344, and Cru is C-R-U. So until next time, so we always like to give you a challenge. So our challenge for this week is to think what is my next step

in encouraging a Christ -centered conversation on my college campus?