MTP 25: Doug Matthews, Part 2, Faith-Filled Science and Spiritual Darkness on the College Campus

Doug is a Professor of Psychology at the University of Wisconsin- Eau Claire.

You can email Doug at: matthedb@uwec.edu
Read more about Doug on MeetTheProf.com: https://meettheprof.com/view/professors/entry/doug-matthews/

Some take-aways from this passionate interview:

1. Faith and Science: Doug addresses the common perception that faith and science are incompatible, emphasizing that this is a false dichotomy.

2. Jesus and Scientific Research: Doug's faith in Christ has positively impacted his career as a scientist, allowing him to ask better questions and approach his work with greater passion and curiosity.

3. Spiritual Darkness on Campuses: Doug describes college campuses as spiritually dark and advises parents to equip their children for the spiritual battles they will face in college.

4. Advice for Christian Professors: He encourages Christian professors to excel in their professional roles while openly sharing their faith, suggesting practical steps.

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Transcript

Shane & Spence (00:00)

So we have a science question for you now from the student. We received these questions from students, so take a listen to this question. So

Katelyn

Hi, I'm Katelyn. I'm a sophomore at the University of Florida and so my question to Christian professors is how science and religion aren't really a topic that most people believe like coexists at all. So I'm wondering how you want to approach this topic when you're in a profession that you're not really allowed to talk about religion that much. yeah.

Doug Matthews (00:10)

Yeah, I love this question. I get this question a lot. When I was, I'll tell you, when I was in Singapore, I'd gotten done with a lecture. It was early in the semester. I always identify myself as a believer, either on the first or the second day of class. And I had this German foreign exchange student come up to me after the lecture and he goes, this was great. I love how direct the question was. He goes, I have a question for you. said, okay, sure.

He goes, do you find it hard for people to take you serious in science considering you're a Christian? I thought, wow, I've never been asked that, or that directly. But that's kind of what people think. You got this camp here, science, you got this camp over here, which is religion and that kind of stuff.

And the two don't meet. And I think part of the reason why that exists is because science faculty, faculty, educated individuals, they push that narrative. You gotta pick a camp. You're one or the other. And if you're in the religion camp, you're really not a thinking individual. Okay, so one of the things that I talk with students about is, okay, hold it. You've gotta ask yourself the question, is that a false dichotomy that's being told to you.

And if it's not, then you have to embrace that notion that that's a false dichotomy. And maybe I can exist in exactly both of the realms. Second thing I'll point out and try and point out is the fact that that's not historically how it's been. That's more of a recent, kind of recent in the last 100 to 200 years kind of growth. It's kind of this post -enlightenment idea that the two camps exist independently of each other. Mostly, we've never thought that's the case at all. So then what I say is,

Why do we believe that? Why can't it not be, kind of like what I said earlier, that someone inside of science is actually discovering and describing and explaining the creation that exists? And anytime I say that, we immediately go to a creation question. Because that's a narrative that the non -believing world wants to try and trip

believers up. And what I talk to individuals about is I say, look, know, gentleman by the name of Philip Johnson, lawyer from UCLA, you know, wrote a great book called The Right Questions. And inside of that, one of the things he talks about is, you know, when individuals want to talk about that, take them to the first chapter of John, where what we get is the idea that God created. Okay? And ask, that's really the issue. It's not how it happened. It's that God created. Okay?

And that becomes a question that we then want to have the conversation about. Because suddenly it's now not, and when I talk to people who are not of the faith, this is a question I frequently will bring up, is the idea of, if we look around stuff, if we look around and we see all this kind of stuff, we see that things exist, okay, it's just the...

Kalam, Kalam Cosmological Argument, forget the exact name of it. You we see all this stuff that exists and we have to ask ourselves the question, where did it come from? And we have to believe it's either always been here, right? Well, scientists taught us that's probably not the case. Okay, so if we're gonna believe science, let's say, okay, that's probably not the case. We could say that it was not there, things weren't there, there was nothing and then suddenly there's all this stuff just popped into existence. How scientific is that, right?

Or there's a creation event. And we're not saying what that is, but there's some kind of creation event. Where are you on that? And somebody will give you an answer. They'll give you one of those three, okay, as an answer. And as we work our way through that, one of the things I'll say is, then why do you believe that? Where's your scientific evidence for that? And usually what somebody says is, I just end up believing that because that's what I believe. So at that point it's, you're

engaging with a presupposition that's really a faith statement. So can we all just agree that we're people of faith? Because really when you say you're either science or religion, what you're really saying is you're either science or faith. So can we just agree that we're all people of faith? We might have faith in different things, but we all have faith in something. So then the question becomes, how reasonable is your faith? And once we start talking about reasonable faith,

Shane & Spence (04:24)

Hmm,

Doug Matthews (04:47)

the Christian perspective shoots up to the top because this is a reasonable faith that exists. And from that, I just start weaving back in the scientific perspective on things. for me, I love Acts 2: 22 where they're preaching here and what they say is, the miracles were given to you to attest the power of Jesus Christ. It's evidence.

You saw these things, you saw these things because it attests the power of it. So it's an evidence -based thing. And we can start talking about inside of that. So if we're gonna believe evidence, if we're gonna follow the evidence and all that kind of stuff, there's your narrative inside of it. So that's how I often play it out in conversations when I'm in classes and stuff like that. In my actual career, I'll just be honest with you, people...

People are very aware of the fact that I'm a person of faith. I've never tried to hide that. That's just kind of... And that's just how people see me now. So, the other thing I say when we talk to somebody who questions this is I just say, it's not hampered my career that I'm aware of. And I think I ask better questions because I ask myself, I spend a lot of time praying, God, what is it you actually want me to investigate?

And off of that, I think it just naturally flows out. So, you know, I get this kind of excitement. I have this kind of love for just what I do as a scientist because of my faith. I'd be a lousy scientist without faith, you know, to be perfectly honest with you. So kind of a long rambling answer, you know, but I get asked that question a lot. One of the things we've done up here in Wisconsin is, and Cru staff has done this around the country, is we do these Reason for God book study groups. And...

Inside of those groups every time I lead one of those it ends up with the question or the comment We're all really people of faith. We're all people of faith. So what do you have faith in? and And that's that's just kind of how that plays out so what I would tell Caitlin is That's a what people say when it's either when it's either science or its religion is that's a false dichotomy You know, so immediately reject that false dichotomy and start asking the questions. Where do the two intersect and why can't it be both?

You know, to kind of go back to an earlier question, one of the things people will ask me sometimes, or an example, or you sometimes, is, okay, I'm a psychologist. So, you know, as a psychologist, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, okay? So, let's take the apostles, all right? And we look at their past behavior, and, you know, I want to give them, you know, a tremendous amount of credit, and I don't want to be really, really critical, because if I had been in that situation, I'd have no idea what was going on, right?

Shane & Spence (07:35)

Mm -hmm.

Doug Matthews (07:36)

But throughout all of Jesus' ministry, up until after the crucifixion, they're confused, they're saying the wrong thing, they're doing the wrong thing. Sometimes they show tremendous faith and sometimes they pull them back and all that kind of stuff. Jesus dies. The crucifixion happens, he's buried. They're hiding. They're hiding. That's their behavior.

And then how do they live their lives after that? The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. If their past behavior is they're messing up and they're hiding, there's no reason to believe that suddenly now they're going to be bold, they're going to be on point constantly, and they're all willing to die, except for John, pretty ghastly deaths. Something had to change. Something had to change so their behavior changed.

Shane & Spence (08:22)

Power of the Holy Spirit.

Doug Matthews (08:28)

And what is that? They had an encounter with the risen Lord and they were indwelled with the Holy Spirit. Right? That's just simple psychology, you know? And I'll be candid with you. When I was at the University of Memphis back in the early 2000s, I was talking to a young student who was, she was preparing to become a missionary in the Church of the Latter -day Saints. And we had that conversation in my office. And I'm thinking to myself, I am going to get fired.

Shane & Spence (08:32)

Great.

Doug Matthews (08:57)

You know, and we had that conversation and she's crying and she's moved and I can't, I don't know what's going on. The conversation ends and she leaves. And I didn't see her again for a couple of months. And one day I came into my office, came to work that morning. I hadn't gotten fired. I came to work that morning and there was a note hanging on my door where she told me that she had left the LDS church. re -engaged with her family. She had become a follower of Jesus Christ. And the whole

The whole thing was that was something she could not, her faith statement could not allow her to explain. And through that experience, you know, of just evidences, what is a reasonable way to explain that? She came to faith in Jesus Christ.

Shane & Spence (09:43)

That's amazing. So you're saying the reasoning of the life change of the disciples, for them to have such a big change. And I've never heard a psychologist speak to that. That's really all the more meaningful. But that was convincing to her that Jesus really was who he said he was, son of God.

Doug Matthews (10:00)

It was. Yeah, it was because, you know, Joseph Smith, the founder of the LDS Church, right, was arrested, was in jail and died in a gunfight. know, so when came, push came to shove at the end, it was a different kind of behavioral response that he showed. And what we talked about, we were in psychology, you we were talking about psychologists, we were talking about behavior, differences in behavior. People behave for reasons. And why is that? You know, and work your way through that.

So.

Shane & Spence (10:31)

except when you're 18. I didn't behave for reasons. I've got an 18 year old right now too.

Doug Matthews (10:33)

Yeah, lobe, prefrontal lobe's not quite there yet.

Shane & Spence (10:41)

Your rational. Wait, isn't it like 25 that males get a fully developed prefrontal lobe? that, is that right? Something like

Doug Matthews (10:46)

They are, yeah. And my wife's problem was I was married at 23. So she had to labor through two years there.

Shane & Spence (10:51)

Yeah. She must really love you. I think I was married right when it was barely developed. I think I was not quite, I was a late bloomer on prefrontal lobe. I hear you. Well, let's head into lightning round questions. This is because we have so many questions we want to ask you. We're going to have to do another interview sometime, but here are some that we want to make sure we get out to you.

Doug Matthews (10:59)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I don't know.

Okay. All

Shane & Spence (11:19)

First question is, what advice would you give to your 18 year old self? If you could go back in time?

Doug Matthews (11:24)

yeah. Don't worry so much about what other people are thinking about you. Figure out who you are and be that person. Yeah.

Shane & Spence (11:31)

that's good. Harder today with social media than ever before I think. Oh

Doug Matthews (11:35)

yeah, I thank the Lord often that I grew up before cell phones and social media apps were out. yeah.

Shane & Spence (11:43)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Great. All right. So what advice would you give to a graduating senior in college getting ready to go out in the world?

Doug Matthews (11:54)

I think what I'd say is start your career, hold your plans loosely in your hands, expect God to do something with you in your life, but don't be able to expect to be able to figure that out. Great advice I had when I was about that age was, God directs moving objects. So get out there and start moving, and God's going to direct you around.

Shane & Spence (12:22)

Hold your plans loosely. I'm going to underline that one. That's good. I like that idea of God moving, I mean, steering moving objects.

Doug Matthews (12:24)

Yeah,

Yeah, man by the name of Bill Neal gave me that. He was a minister at a church we were attending. Him and I met weekly, one -on -one. It's one of the things he said to me often.

Shane & Spence (12:34)

again.

Well, what advice would you give to other Christian professors?

Doug Matthews (12:49)

You know, didn't call us to be different people in different places. God called us to be us. Right? You know, so do your job excellently. Be a great teacher. Be a great scholar. Whatever that might be in your discipline. Be a great committee member. Okay? And show your faith. Talk about your faith. You know, because if you're an amazing person who's nice to all your students,

and they never know you're person of faith, they never know that you're a follower of Jesus, they're going to just think you're really nice person.

This has been driven home to me more and more and more, but really recently, Meet the Prof is huge. Okay, so on all of my university emails, I have a tagline at the bottom that says personal website and it's Meet the Prof. Okay, so it doesn't matter if I email another faculty member, my chair, the provost, the chancellor, the University of Wisconsin system President,

somebody in my career or anything like that, that's there. And part of it is, does anybody even notice that? So I'll give you two stories on it. One is, every semester, about a month before the semester starts, I send an email to my class that's coming up, and it's a goofy email. In fact, one of the students reported it as fraud because it wasn't serious enough.

Shane & Spence (14:16)

It couldn't be a professor.

Doug Matthews (14:18)

This guy can't be prof, right? So it's a goofy email. And I put that out there. And part of it is I just want to engage with them and I want to have a dialogue back and forth. But, but Cru tracked it once. And the week after I send that email, the clicks on my Meet The Prof go up because students see that and they click it. And when they go, the first thing they do is they read my testimony of me becoming a follower of Christ and then other questions associated with that. But otherwise, another thing I was at a research conference this summer and

Shane & Spence (14:36)

Mm -hmm.

Doug Matthews (14:48)

And there was a faculty member, I won't tell you who it is or where she's at because I don't have permission to share the information, but it's probably one of the top 10 universities in the United States. And she comes up to me and she goes, I want you to know that you're not alone. And I said, okay, I don't really know what you're saying right now, what do you mean? And she goes, I want you to know that I'm a person of faith and I've read your testimony and I just want you to know that you're not here alone. People read those things.

And that was a gift from the Lord. I looked at her and I said, this is a gift from God that you've shared that with me. So thank you very much. So what I would say to a faculty member

Shane & Spence (15:23)

Yeah.

Doug Matthews (15:28)

fill out a Meet the Prof and put it on your email. And it's hosted on an offline site. So I've had people complain about it, UW legal system vetted it and said it's perfectly legal for him to have this here.

and just do that. You'll be amazed at the response that comes out of that. The other thing I'd say is to a prof who's struggling, just be yourself. Be a follower of Jesus.

Shane & Spence (15:55)

right. So this is one I'm dying hear. So I've got one kid in college and another one heading that way.

What advice would you give to parents of college students, particularly new parents, who are sending that one off for the first time?

Doug Matthews (16:09)

Yeah, pray for your child. Pray a lot for your child.

Give your child the freedom to stumble. Their faith is going to be challenged. Pray as they work their way through those challenges. Ask questions. You're not always going to get answers. But every now and then, they're going to come to you with a nugget of information. My prof said this, I saw that. And have those conversations with your kids. Stay engaged in your kid's life.

but really, really pray for your child. It's one of those times in life where the child is really needing to embrace their faith for the first time. It's no longer mom and dad's faith, they're kind of off on their own. Maybe some kids have gotten there earlier, but it's one of those times where they really encounter stuff of life.

Shane & Spence (17:02)

Yeah, so true.

Doug Matthews (17:15)

I think for the parent, what I'd say is enjoy it. It's great. You're watching your kid become who they're going to be. That's amazing. But really, bathe them in prayer. Just bathe them in prayer.

Shane & Spence (17:18)

Mm

Alright, so here's my part B to this if you don't mind. Because I think a lot of parents see what's going on on news or ask wherever you get it at universities with some level of horror. know, my gosh, it was not like this when I was in school. Like, look at what they're teaching them. Look at the kids, like, and they just look and they're like, can my kids survive in this environment? Can their faith survive in what seems at times like an anti -Christian environment?

Doug Matthews (17:40)

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, everything you just said is true. Okay, in higher education, like I was saying earlier, higher education, higher education in the West is one of the most spiritually dark places in the world. I firmly believe that. And so everything you just articulated is absolutely true.

Shane & Spence (17:57)

What do you say to that? Like what do you say to the parent?

Doug Matthews (18:23)

And I think what I would say to the parent, if I was sitting in front of a group of parents right now, there's times, unfortunately, I think in my personality where I come across with a bit of a challenging kind of answer. And I think this would be one of those moments where I would say.

What if it was your child at that moment standing in front of Goliath? Would you try to helicopter that moment? Or is the God we serve. . .

Shane & Spence (18:53)

Mm -hmm. Is he big enough? Yeah. Mm -hmm.

Doug Matthews (18:54)

I'm going to start crying. Is the God we serve big enough? Is the God we serve mighty enough? Is the God we serve able to meet that challenge? And the answer to those questions is yes, He is. And, you know, one of the things I talk about is,

You know, this is not the one thing, but one of the things I really love about Cru. Cru has said, we will be on the college campus. We will not abandon the college campus. So part of it is all the disaster that we see at the college campus is because so many believers have walked away from it, because it's such a mess. It's so bad. It's so offensive that the only way we're going to reclaim that ground is to be involved in that ground.

Shane & Spence (19:35)

Mm -hmm.

Doug Matthews (19:49)

Right? So when your kid goes, and it's horrific, pray for your child, because the God you're talking to is mighty enough that your child just very well might transform that entire campus. Right?

Shane & Spence (20:03)

All right, so going by that David Goliath analogy, I think parents would have to have the mindset of my kids going in to battle and I need to equip them versus my kids going in to be nurtured or fed or something. So we need to prepare our kids for battle when they go to college, not to prepare them to be fed and nurtured, which is not what the world tells you college is.

Doug Matthews (20:18)

your kid's going into battle. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Shane & Spence (20:30)

World says, no, college is the incubator where you're fed and nurtured, not where you do battle.

Doug Matthews (20:34)

Right, so forgive me for belaboring the point, okay? But, you know, and I'm gonna get the scene wrong. I show this scene in my classes often, okay, and I talk about it and stuff, not exactly inside of the context that I'm gonna talk about it here. When I talk at Cru or I talk at Common Call sometimes I'll talk about this. So this is out of the Lord of the Rings, and this is the charge, I forget who, the Rohan -den, Roh -he -den, I'm saying that.

right? And it's his speech at the very beginning, you know, this is a red day, right? This is a sword day. And it's a challenge to pick up your spiritual armor and engage in that, you know, because, you know, our enemies are not flesh and blood. And if we, you know, if we don't recognize that, then we put ourselves in a weaker spot.

Shane & Spence (21:07)

Hmm.

Doug Matthews (21:32)

We engage in that charge. And when I would say,

Send your child to a public campus, equip your child, cover your child in prayer, pray for the faculty. pray for the faculty. Teach your child to pray for their faculty members. Because that analogy, when you're in a very, very dark place, one match is really bright. All you need is that one light. Be that light.

Shane & Spence (21:47)

Mm -hmm.

Hmm, yep, yep, yep.

Yeah.

Doug Matthews (22:06)

You know, don't shirk from it. Don't pull back from it. Recognize it's hard. know, recognize it's not going to always go well. It's not going to always be easy. But, you know, that is something that we need to engage in. And that's something that I say for faculty. need to, faculty need to own our faith because that provides cover for the student. That provides a place for the student to be able to engage in.

Shane & Spence (22:32)

Mm -hmm.

Doug Matthews (22:35)

One of the things the Lord has allowed me to be able to do is try and push that boundary. Because with other faculty, then I'm able to say, look, I'm still here. I haven't gotten fired yet. So if I can do this, you can do this. Or you can do something back here. But I think we have to see ourselves in a spiritual battle. You can imagine how my chair must love me in a faculty meeting.

Shane & Spence (22:46)

Mm -hmm.

Wow. You know, and I'm going to now belabor the point you apologize for it. So I apologize to it too, but that, that underscores the need to make sure your kid is wearing spiritual armor when they go to school, because it's hard to expect them to get it. Like I'm like, my, my son's probably going to hate me saying this, but I'm going to, when he was a senior in high school, he wasn't ready. Like spiritually he had, he was a COVID kid. Right. He got, you know, everything went wrong.

Doug Matthews (23:12)

Yeah.

Shane & Spence (23:29)

And we're like, you need to go do something else. He did YWAM, which is Youth With A Mission. Went and did that. Came back a whole different kid. We're like, now you're ready. And he's going to a public school in North Carolina. But we were the same way. We were like, I don't want to send you out there without armor on. And I think you would back that up, it sounds like, is what I'm hearing from you. Yeah.

Doug Matthews (23:51)

yeah. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, you know, it's,

You have to engage in that and be prepared to engage in that. Now you're not gonna know all the answers and you're not gonna know all the questions. And you're gonna have moments where you're like stumped and you're gonna have moments where your faith is challenged, right? So find faculty or believers further along, Cru staff's great, that you can talk to and work those things out. You gotta find yourself a group of believers that is your home, right? All of that kind of stuff.

Shane & Spence (24:25)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Doug Matthews (24:28)

But you gotta be engaged in that. Because if, what I'd say for the students is if you sit in a classroom and faculty say something, you know, if I sit in the classroom and I say, neurons have these various components, there's probably not much for a believer to say, hold it Matthews, da da da da da, right? But, you know, if you're sitting in the classroom and a faculty says something that has a spiritual component assigned to it, that,

is anti

majesty of Jesus Christ, and we sit there quietly. When the faculty member says, what do you all think about this? Let's have a discussion about this. And you sit there quietly. Unfortunately, what's happening is there's an opportunity there that's being missed. You don't to be rude. You don't have to be challenging. You can just simply say, yeah, but what about? You may get a little bit of a pile on. That's going to happen sometimes.

Recognize that's going to happen.

Shane & Spence (25:30)

I think we'll add to another entire episode just on this subject. think I could, I'm gonna let you go because I could talk another 10 minutes on this one. I love your passion. I appreciate you not sugarcoating the experience of the college world and your challenge there for parents like us, especially. So I imagine there would be students who would love to talk to you more as well as faculty or parents and grandparents.

How can someone follow you or reach you with any questions?

Doug Matthews (26:03)

Yeah, so what I would say is, you know, if someone wants to reach out more, the easiest way to do it initially would probably just be to drop me an email at my university email. I don't know if that's out on Meet the Prof.

Shane & Spence (26:16)

Okay.

I'll put it in the description here for the podcast. Yes, so they can find it

Doug Matthews (26:22)

Wow, okay. Yeah, so drop me an email. If you got a question. If I said something that you think is completely wrong, by all means, let's talk about that. Because Lord knows today I'm going to say hundreds of things that are probably completely wrong. If you have something that's a follow -up, let's have that conversation.

I mean, the technology is kind of really interesting.

So don't hesitate to do that. I'm perfectly happy to have that. And it could be faculty, it could be student. I love the idea of a parent or a grandparent or something like that. That's good.

Shane & Spence (26:54)

Yeah.

Awesome. Thank you, Doug. What a treat. We've got many more questions. Thanks for spending this time with us.

Doug Matthews (27:02)

I mean, this was fun. I really appreciate what you all do. I really appreciate that the Lord gave you this vision and that the two of you followed up on it. You know, I think a lot of us get some ideas that God's given us and we're kind of a little hesitant to follow. Maybe it won't work. Maybe it doesn't do what I want to do. And I just want to really commend you all for having followed the direction that the Lord has led you. I've had a ball.