MTP 21: John Chen on Redefining Success: Living According to God's Will

John Chen is an Associate Professor of Entrepreneurship and Strategy at Baylor University.

Takeaways:
Finding fulfillment requires surrendering worldly pursuits and relying on God.
John led a student to Christ in his office!
Doubts in faith are normal and it sometimes takes time for God to work.
Ministering to others involves showing care and being present.
Success is redefined in Christ, focusing on living according to God's will.
Building intentional relationships is crucial for discipleship.
Being salt and light in the workplace is as important as being a pastor or missionary.
Professors grow in influence for Christ by engaging outside their department.
Genuine relationships have the power to transform lives.

Read about John on MeetTheProf.com: https://meettheprof.com/view/professors/entry/john-chen/

Email John at: john_chen@baylor.edu

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Transcript

Shane & Spence (00:17)
Hey everybody, welcome to Meet the Prof. I'm Shane Hartley and my friend Spence Hackney and I have this great privilege of doing a podcast where we interview Christian professors using questions from college students like you just heard from Alana. And we are having a good time, maybe a little bit too much of a good time. The interview that you're gonna hear today is with Dr. John Chen and for some reason we just had an unusually enjoyable time.

We might be getting a little too comfortable with these professors because it's becoming more fun. But I think you're really gonna enjoy hearing from Dr. Chen. He's an associate professor of entrepreneurship and strategy at Baylor University. And he shares a real broken time of his life when he was crying out to God while getting his PhD. And he also shares about leading a student to Christ in his office at one point. And he really challenges the idea that,

being a pastor or a missionary is a holier career than any other career out there. So I think you're really gonna enjoy getting to know him. And our goal with these podcasts, our interviews are to encourage Christ -centered conversations on the college campus. And we invite you to check out our website, which is meettheprof .com. That is an awesome way of finding Christian faculty from across the country.

And there are over 500 who have put their testimonies on there of how Christ has worked in their lives. And you could go on meettheprof .com and you can search by state. You can search just by a certain campus. And we don't have every campus represented yet. So I'll put a little plug in there. If you know of a Christian professor who is not on meettheprof .com, forward them the link and ask them if they would put their profile on there.

And we really feel grateful that you are joining us on this journey. And so without any further ado, here's our interview with Dr. John Chen.

Shane & Spence (02:27)
Well, John, welcome to Meet the Prof. It's really good to have you with us. How are you doing?

John Chen (02:33)
I'm doing well. Thanks for having me.

Shane & Spence (02:35)
It's our pleasure, our pleasure. So there are many things we learned about you on MeetTheProf .com, but I think one of the first questions we have is what in the world did you do putting a hole in your wall? What was the story with you in a golf club putting a hole in the wall?

John Chen (02:53)
Well, this is during college. I think it was my sophomore, junior year. I don't remember. This goes back to the story of how I got interested and enthused in golf. My roommate bought a ladies five iron from a flea market. And yeah, and we just started, initially we bought some wiffle balls, golf wiffle balls, and we went to the park, you know, diagonal from our apartment. And we just started, you know,

We didn't know what we were doing. We were just hitting the ball, tearing up the grass. After a few days, a policeman came by and said, I like your spirit, your willingness to try a new sport, but guys, you can't do this here. This is not the place to do this. So we were so pumped about golf, we went out and bought golf sets, beginner golf sets. And...

Shane & Spence (03:39)
Hahaha

John Chen (03:52)
Sometime during that first phase of learning how to play, I got really obsessed and I was swinging the club inside our apartment just to practice. And it was a hot summer day and my hands just got sweaty. And at some point I just lost it. I mean, I lost the club. I didn't lose, I didn't get angry. And the club just flew straight in the wall, put a hole in that clearly was the shape of...

Shane & Spence (04:10)
Hmm.

John Chen (04:22)
you know, a seven iron or whatever.

And initially I felt so embarrassed. I'm like, man, my roommates are going to kill me. So we weren't really tidy back then. Unlike most college students, we weren't really tidy.

Shane & Spence (04:40)
Surprise surprise thick with sarcasm around this place.

John Chen (04:45)
Yeah, so we had a lot of boxes laying around and what I did was I stacked the boxes up high to cover the hole, thinking that this could be like a permanent solution perhaps. And like, I know, you know, college students, it could go for months like that. But one of my roommates at the time who I'm still friends with, in fact, we're playing golf together at the end of July,

Shane & Spence (04:52)
Just to hide it.

I'm going to go to bed.

Yeah.

John Chen (05:13)
He's really observant. He looked around the room and he's like, why are those boxes stacked up? And I'm like, I don't know. And he's like, why are those boxes stacked up? And he's like, let me move these. And he's like, what's that?

Shane & Spence (05:29)
He's a good detective.

John Chen (05:31)
So he's a great detective. So I did learn some useful skills as a result of that. So there was a good lesson there. I learned how to repair holes in walls. I did it just sort of in an ad hoc way. I put newspaper underneath and I bought some plaster from Home Depot. And then I went to, what's that?

Shane & Spence (05:55)
yeah.

Yeah, I was just wondering also, did you learn anything about your grip? How do you get a better grip on your club?

John Chen (06:04)
Well, just don't play indoors without gloves on a hot summer day. That pretty much takes care of that. Yeah. And I went to our physical plant at the university and I got some paint that matched pretty closely. It was like an off -white. And then I took some dirt from outside and I just put it all over the wall and then I cleaned it and that really kind of...

Shane & Spence (06:08)
wear gloves okay okay

Mm -hmm.

made it natural, fit in with the rest of the wall. I'm going to try that one. Ruts and dirt on my wall and then wipe it off and see what my wife says. Look, it looks better, honey. It's great. Look what I learned from a professor today. So here's my burning question. Are you going to tell us that that's the last time you threw a golf club or are you going to tell us the truth about the golf club you threw last week?

John Chen (06:35)
Yeah, yeah.

Wow, Vince, that is a very wise question. What's that?

Shane & Spence (06:58)
Well, I know golfers. I know golfers. You've thrown a club since then.

John Chen (07:06)
I have thrown it a few times since then and not by accident. So I'm not proud of it, but I haven't done that in a very long time. So.

Shane & Spence (07:12)
Yeah.

No, no.

 Just for the record, there's a pretty nice Nike driver on the driving range at a Beau Rivage golf course that's probably still out there. So if you want to go get it, those were the worst. Cause Tara doesn't let you play golf in the house anymore. You had to go out there. I don't, I don't let me play golf anymore. I'll be honest. I'm not my best self when I play golf. That's what I had to, have you seen that John, have you seen the I hate golf brand?

John Chen (07:37)
Ha ha ha ha!

Shane & Spence (07:46)
They're selling places now. Like, but the pro shop down here has hats for sale. They just say, I hate golf on it. And it's apparently a brand that's becoming popular. I'm thinking when your sport actually has a brand that says you despise it, there's a problem. There's an issue here.

John Chen (07:49)
Say it again, what is that?

There is an issue. I mean, why did they make the club so small and the ball so small, right?

Shane & Spence (08:09)
So.

I know, I know. Well, now they can make a driver like as big as your head. Like that's the solution to this. Let's just make a driver that's enormous. But they finally did. I had those two like actual wood woods that had a sweet spot that was about the size of your pinky nail, you know, that you had to hit the ball in. Yeah. Back in the day. This is why I play tennis. Bigger sweet spot.

John Chen (08:20)
People got smart, but back when I started they were little, so.

right, right.

Shane & Spence (08:37)
I agree. So do you still play golf regularly? Are you an avid golfer, like a once a week sort of golfer?

John Chen (08:37)
you

Well, my chair of my department may watch this, so I'm going to have to say no.

Shane & Spence (08:49)
Only after six o 'clock when I'm done grading everything, right? Will I go out and play golf? Absolutely. Yeah, I get it. Well, John, I really appreciated how open you were online about how you came to faith in Christ and giving details of how you became convinced who Jesus was. And I would...

John Chen (08:55)
Right, right, right.

Shane & Spence (09:15)
I was wondering if you would elaborate some on what you described as being like an awareness of an emptiness inside and how you would say, you might even encourage students that how does Jesus fill an emptiness like that?

John Chen (09:32)
Sure. I think part of the emptiness was going from undergrad to grad school. And it was a jarring kind of transition because as an undergrad, things are kind of, for lack of a better word, they're kind of programmed for you. So this is whether you're a Christian or not. I mean, there are so many clubs.

Shane & Spence (09:54)
Mm -hmm.

John Chen (10:03)
so many, you know, intramural sports and just it's the undergrad experience is really designed to, be, be relational and have that almost like managed for you in some sense. And then, you know, going to grad school, all that is kind of, thrown out the window. And I didn't know what to do in some, in some sense. And I just, I'm a little bit introverted. So, you know, it wasn't.

Shane & Spence (10:18)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

John Chen (10:33)
so jarring, but it was like, well, how do I make friends now? You know, like there's, I'm just, I'm just an adult, like a bona fide adult on my own.

Shane & Spence (10:37)
Mm -hmm.

John Chen (10:43)
I didn't know it at the time, but I think, you know, that was one of the ways like, the Lord was using to, you know, you know, convict me of sort of that I needed him, right.

Shane & Spence (10:55)
Mm -hmm.

John Chen (10:56)
And wandering through grad school, I had, this was like my first stint in grad school, right after my undergrad. And it was a very short stint. And I wonder now if part of it was that growing feeling of emptiness. You know, and all I knew at the time was like, you know, I'm pretty good academically. You know, success was like my idol and that's all I cared about. I wasn't a believer.

Shane & Spence (11:13)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

John Chen (11:25)
know, I think that really, really amplified my sense of emptiness. Just being lonely and just two things, being lonely and having this sense that success was not fulfilling. Right. And that carried through to my time in my first job in Arizona and just feeling a deepening sense of emptiness, which I didn't.

Shane & Spence (11:31)
Hmm.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

John Chen (11:52)
understand given that like I was making money now, I bought this, you know, cool new sports car. These were just like, I, you know, I can't even really put it to words, but it was just like, and all the things that I thought would make my life great. I just felt like this, this is just like, you know, filthy rags and it just started feeling very empty.

Shane & Spence (11:57)
Hmm.

Mm.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. And that was after grad school. You got the job. You were still okay. You used that word success in there a few times. Tell us a little bit about how you define success then and how you define success now. What's changed for you there?

John Chen (12:24)
Yeah. Yeah.

yeah, yeah, that's a really great question. I mean, success then was about as sort of worldly as it gets, right? Like being like excellent in my job, which is still part of, you know, what I consider success now, but it's not the main thing. But other things too, materialistic things, like just having a lot of things and money and...

Shane & Spence (13:01)
Yeah.

John Chen (13:10)
having friends that I could have fun with and have them entertain me. Those are all the sort of things that I valued the most. But yeah, I don't value that part anymore at all, really. And that's where one of the things that God's really changed in me that I could never have changed by myself,

Shane & Spence (13:18)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Mm

John Chen (13:34)
mean, success is...

for me is completely intertwined with God's will, ultimately for me. And I mean, that's, you can say that, but doing that is still an exercise in letting the Holy Spirit refine me. But I know what the target is intellectually. And, you know.

Shane & Spence (13:44)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

John Chen (14:00)
am clinging to God daily almost, and that He would be my strength, show me what His will is, and to live it out by word and deed every day.

Shane & Spence (14:03)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. John, what else changed in your life when you came to Christ? And was it drastic? Yeah, was it drastic or gradual?

John Chen (14:23)
Well, was it drastic, you said?

It was, I would say, drastic when it happened, but it took a long time, right? So I gave my life to Christ in, I think it was 96, 1996, but there was like a lot of just sort of drifting and being a very nominal believer, just, you know, I would say the right words and at the right times.

Shane & Spence (14:34)
Yeah

John Chen (14:58)
because I read a lot, I read the Bible a lot, but I really didn't live my life on the inside for Jesus for a long time. I was an angry person, I threw golf clubs. Not that that's the divining rod of whether you're a true believer or not, but...

Shane & Spence (15:17)
Me too. Even when you were.

Right.

John Chen (15:28)
But yeah,

anger, lust, all the sort of, and still caring too much about success in sort of worldly ways. But I think what really rocked my world was probably about 12 years ago by now, 13 years ago, when I went back to grad school to get a PhD in business. And it was just a tough time, like a really tough time.

And so tough that I sought professional counseling. Like, and I talked to other like Chinese or Asian people, like, I went to see counseling. They're like, you went to see counseling because it's like less, less of a thing for us. Like, like things really have to be messed up for us to go that direction. So I was hitting a wall and I was just really in despair. And that's when I began just.

Shane & Spence (16:16)
Hmm.

Okay.

John Chen (16:27)
I was at the end of my rope and I cried out to God like almost on a nightly basis during the rough periods, trying to get through my PhD. Not sure if I'd finished with two young toddlers at the time and just the weight of the world on my shoulders. I felt, right? Like in hindsight, it's like, I'm like, what did you really have to be worried about? You know, I mean,

Shane & Spence (16:50)
Hmm.

Yeah.

John Chen (16:57)
Those are the things that you were worried about, weren't things, weren't even the worst things in worldly terms. I mean, like I didn't have any disease and, you know, and I had a wife who loved me and it's like, so what was I really worried about? But back then it felt like the weight of the world was on my shoulders. And that's when I began crying out to God, like nightly and praying nightly and.

Shane & Spence (17:18)
Mm -hmm.

John Chen (17:25)
And I told God, you know, like, if you get me out of this mess, like, I'll literally do anything for you. You know? And I think at the time, maybe that was the first time I said that where I really meant it. And, you know, like, big surprise, God actually listens and He cares. Yeah, so that was the big, you know, the big change.

Shane & Spence (17:39)
Hmm.

Mm -hmm. Wow. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm thinking about Romans 6, where it talks about how there's freedom in being a slave to righteousness. And there's bondage when you're a slave to sin. And there's so much anxiety from trying to do it yourself and trying to solve all your own problems and trying to be worried about those things and so much freedom in going, hey, God, I trust you to handle this. There's an incredible amount of freedom in that.

John Chen (18:02)
Mm -hmm.

Yes.

Shane & Spence (18:23)
You were really at a broken spot, it sounds like, to cry out to God that you were in a place of really needing him to come through. What did you learn about Jesus through all of that? What do you appreciate about Jesus more having gone through that?

John Chen (18:41)
Well, you know that Jesus is a Lord of grace and mercy. That maybe was the biggest lesson, you know, like

Shane & Spence (18:50)
Hmm.

John Chen (18:54)
hadn't done anything in particular that merited what he did for me afterwards, like nothing, you know, all those like,

Shane & Spence (19:02)
Hmm.

John Chen (19:07)
broken and sinful things that I was telling him about before. I was still like that when I was crying out to him. And, you know, so a God who would give his everything for me, it's like when you realize that it's a no -brainer. You have to follow. You have to follow him.

Shane & Spence (19:28)
Another thing that I appreciate about Jesus in your story is how patient he is.

You came to faith in Christ and then there was a long journey still of you learning to trust Him and then later you crying out to Him. And I think that encourages me and that can encourage others who

look at their life and say, my life is barely changing. How can I call myself a Christian when I'm still struggling with so many things? And I think there's a legitimate reason to check ourselves. Like if we...

John Chen (20:05)
Yeah.

Shane & Spence (20:10)
 in some sin and really not even having a heart of repentance or turning from it we're supposed to challenge or do we really have faith in Christ but what you're describing really encourages me that even with coming to genuine faith in Christ there's a long journey sometimes of seeing God change our lives so thanks for sharing that.

John Chen (20:33)
Yeah. And, you know, the funny thing is like, you know, it'd be tempting to say, to think like, well, why isn't John, you know, like upset it took so long. Why doesn't he like, you know, at night when he's like, just his thoughts are running, say, you know, God, why didn't you do this to me like 10 years earlier? But you know, the thing is, I don't, I don't really feel that way. I mean, I feel like the fact that.

Shane & Spence (20:56)
Yeah.

Hmm.

John Chen (21:03)
that he did it is the, you know, I'm just so thankful for that. And the timing doesn't matter so much.

Shane & Spence (21:16)
Yeah, that's great. So there's some student or professor out there listening to this right now that is in that kind of meat grinder you were in of achievement and fear and that sort of thing. And what's the one thing you would say to them right now based on your experience? Like if they've got to focus on one thing to deal with this, what is it?

John Chen (21:38)
Mm -hmm.

Well, I would say, well, there's two scenarios. If the person is not a Christ follower, I would have a different conversation and just tell him my story. I probably would tell the story either way, actually, come to think of it.

Shane & Spence (22:01)
Mm -hmm.

John Chen (22:05)
But I think for...

a believer, I would just pray with him and just be an encouragement to him. I think a lot of times people like that just need to know that you care. And that was my experience too. I didn't mention the part about a friend of mine who's really...

Shane & Spence (22:29)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

John Chen (22:38)
has a really soft heart for God. And he's a professor too in a different discipline in computer science. And what he did when I told him how desperate I felt and how low I felt, he just offered himself fully. Like there were several times when I felt like I was at the end of my rope

during a day and I would call him randomly and say, hey, look, I'm just feeling really low. Can we talk? And he wouldn't just talk over the phone. He would drive to my house and we would take walks around the neighborhood. Sometimes not saying anything, just being there. So that was a good model to follow. And so if the person or someone I knew and had that same sort of ability to do that, I would do that.

Shane & Spence (23:16)
Mmm, that's strong. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

John Chen (23:36)
for sure. If a person weren't like that and that I was meeting over Zoom or something, I might just share what I've shared with you guys, first of all, that God is faithful and just to hang in there. I know that sounds like a throwaway line, but I don't really mean it like that. And also, I think,

Shane & Spence (23:50)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

John Chen (24:05)


know, God's provision for us is, a guarantee, that's not something we have to worry about. So what is really our worry? You know, it's not the end of the world if we get, you know, kind of a...

Shane & Spence (24:14)
Mm -hmm.

John Chen (24:29)
off track and we have to do something other than academia, really. And sometimes we're in this bubble and we think it's the end of the world if that happens, but it really isn't.

Shane & Spence (24:39)
Mm -hmm.

That's a good word.

without sharing names, do you have any story of a time where God's allowed you to minister to a student who was struggling or to a faculty member or staff member who was struggling in their faith in some way?

John Chen (25:03)
Yeah, I have a couple that come to mind. One is a young man who I met at Florida and he was struggling because, you know, it was interesting. He was a great student, right? Very sharp. And is...

I haven't spoken to him in a while. I think he's probably done with med school now, but

I really got to know him pretty well and learned that he was struggling with, you know, his faith, right? In terms of it being like him not being good enough for God. Cause he told me that he had a different background where, you know, works were kind of valued in a church setting.

Shane & Spence (25:48)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

John Chen (25:59)
I met with him a number of times, but the one time in my office was like the time that was like, you talk about like pivotal moments, that was a pivotal moment where the Holy Spirit really spoke to him. And he just like broke down and cried in my office. And he realized that, you know, it's all God and His grace.

Shane & Spence (26:21)
Hmm.

John Chen (26:24)
It's not by works that he saved. And, you know, it was like an out of body experience because like, I'm pretty sure it wasn't anything I said.

Shane & Spence (26:37)
What did you say?

John Chen (26:39)
Well, what I did was I went through some scripture. I went through Ephesians 2, 6 through 10. And I don't even remember, but it was based around sort of by faith and grace rather than works. And that was the main theme. And I was just fumbling around just saying random stuff. And then at some point, he just...

Shane & Spence (27:05)
Thank you.

John Chen (27:07)
He just started really breaking down and crying. And it was, I think God reached his heart that day. And after that, he changed. He began being interested in being discipled and discipling others. And...

Shane & Spence (27:30)
you saw someone come to Christ then in your office. And what was that like then for him to be discipled? Are you saying you had the opportunity to disciple him in some way on campus? I'd love to know what that looked like.

John Chen (27:45)
Well, I mean, that was, I think, if I remember right, he was near graduation. So we met some and I think it was became difficult. So we met for Zoom and studied the Bible for a while. And then after a while, you know, med school gets crazy and it's just, and that, that peered out. But I'm, I'm, I'm trusting that, that God is still, you know, pouring into the young man.

Shane & Spence (28:14)
Definitely. Definitely. That's amazing. Why? So encouraging. You mentioned presence several times. Like you mentioned the guy in your story was just present. Like he would just go on a walk with you. And this gentleman came in our office and was present, was physically there. And there's this current now of kind of isolation in virtual.

John Chen (28:29)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Shane & Spence (28:40)
and let's just exchange Instagram handles and that'll be enough. That's going on in our culture. Like it's on the campus, it's in business, it's everywhere. How do we get around that? Like what advice do you have? Because that physical presence is so important. Like something different seems to happen when we bump against each other in our design.

John Chen (29:01)
Yeah. I think it just, intentionality does go a long way. You know, here at Baylor, I'm part of some, you know, teams that, strive to meet in person, whenever we can and work real hard at it. you know, even like, you know, recently we, you know, we were, reserving, the clubhouse at my, you know, a neighborhood and.

And so there's a lot of, a lot of pain, if you will, the logistical pain of doing that, but it's worth it. It's totally worth it. And

Shane & Spence (29:39)
Mm -hmm. I agree with you. I agree with you.

John Chen (29:44)
as professors, one of the things that I really love doing is, you know, meeting my coauthors in person. Recently, I was in my alma mater, University of Michigan for a conference just a few weeks ago.

Shane & Spence (29:52)
Mm -hmm.

John Chen (30:00)
and I have a new co -author who's in Canada. And so, you know, I told him, hey, well, let's just meet in person. I'm kind of in your neck of the woods. And it's like a two hour drive from Michigan, from Detroit to get to our halfway point. And we met and it was just really a great time of getting to know him. And, you know, there's talks of me going up to...

Shane & Spence (30:11)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Hmm.

John Chen (30:30)
his university for maybe an extended time just to get to know him and just share who I am more with him and him for me too. And I think it's a great thing. I mean, even if it's a little bit tough to do, you know, when I was crossing the border into Canada, the border patrol person,

Shane & Spence (30:55)
Mm -hmm.

John Chen (31:00)
just really, you know, asked me a lot of things. I was so surprised. I didn't think they would do that between the U S and Canada. but one of the things that he asked me was like, why are you guys meeting in person? Can't you just meet over zoom? And I was kind of stuck. I was fumbling. I'm like, how do I explain to this guy that meeting in person is, is, is important. And, I didn't really, I just came up with.

Shane & Spence (31:06)
Mm. Mm -hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

John Chen (31:30)
a dud answer. I just said, well, we've had plenty of times over Zoom and I've never met him in person. I thought it'd be nice to do that. And, and he kind of just looked and said, well, whatever. Okay. And then he eventually let me through, but.

Shane & Spence (31:31)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, that, that ties back to that in the very beginning, how your definition of success changes. And I think our definition of productivity has to, has to change. And if you think that we're created in the image of God, then connecting with another person created in the image of God is probably the most productive or successful thing you can do. It's way more important than getting whatever task accomplished that you need to do.

John Chen (32:07)
Yeah.

Shane & Spence (32:09)
You know, because we're so task driven, it's just, we got to get the paper done and edited and everybody's thoughts combined and published. But is that the win or is connecting with the image of God the win? You know, that's where you've got to redefine that a bit as a Christian, I think, and in work just in general. And I wonder, what does it say about our culture that an in -person meeting is raising flags now? Yeah.

John Chen (32:33)
Right, yeah. No, I'm a big believer in that and it's not, I think ultimately if you do it enough, I would hope that for anyone who does it that it isn't actually a chore. A part of it is just like, I like hanging out with people. It's worth it.

Shane & Spence (32:54)
Yeah.

 right? Yeah. You are an introvert?

John Chen (33:03)
What's up?

I'm an introvert, but I like hanging out like one on one ...

Shane & Spence (33:09)
It says a lot, yeah.

John Chen (33:11)
Like in a crowd, like at a party, I eventually kind of feel like maybe I don't want to be here anymore. But one -on -one. So I guess, you know, my daughters don't believe I'm quite an introvert. But they say maybe I'm somewhere in between, so.

Shane & Spence (33:16)
Okay.

huh. huh. huh.

Mm -hmm. Well, even though we would love to have a student here in person, and we'd love to be in person with you on this interview, we do have a student who sent in a question. So take a listen to this student's

John Chen (34:04)
yeah, that's an excellent question. I think it sort of depends on where you are. So I'll answer the question for an undergrad and then like a master's student and then a doctoral student separately. One of the things for undergrads, I think, and I learned this through my students, it seems like a big barrier is thinking that professors are kind of on a pedestal and I'm afraid of them.

Shane & Spence (34:33)
Mm.

John Chen (34:34)
And this one student was very, very open about it. I really appreciated her. She said, you know, Professor Chen, I don't have any problems coming to your office and coming often because, you know, my parents are both professors, so like, you don't scare me. And then she went further to say, but a lot of my classmates, they're kind of reluctant to go because there's this perceived distance or whatever.

Shane & Spence (35:02)
Hmm.

John Chen (35:04)
And I get that some of that is warranted because you're in authority position over them and you give them grades and things like that.

I think if they came to my house and I've begun inviting students to my house, I think they would be pleasantly surprised, I think, that we're just regular people.

Shane & Spence (35:32)
Mm -hmm.

John Chen (35:33)
We put holes in the wall. We trip. I mean, very regular people. And the professor thing is just, it's not particularly for Christian professors, it's not who we are, it's just what we do, right? And so for the undergrad, I would offer that just to don't be afraid to approach them. They don't bite. I don't bite at least.

Shane & Spence (35:36)
Thank you.

Yeah.

John Chen (36:01)
I guess for, I would say a master's student, I think there's a little bit more in a typical program that it's smaller. So you have a greater chance to be develop relationships with professors just because, you know, the opportunity is greater in many cases. And there, I mean, advice would be similar to a PhD student that.

You know, get to know the professor, get to know your other students. There are fewer of them as well. And just build friendships. And that is, I think, for me, my way of sharing the gospel is just to build friendships, you know, live life together, right? In a video I saw, like,

Shane & Spence (36:39)
Mm -mm.

John Chen (36:56)
This guy was talking about how to reach people of other faiths. In this case, I think it was Muslims, right? And share the gospel with Muslims. Like the number one thing is showing love to them, right? The number one thing, when they surveyed Muslims who had become Christians, the number one thing that they pointed to was how that person who was sharing with them was loving them intentionally.

So that's an overarching thing I think that applies in many contexts. But in the context of a university, it's building the relationships with your students. If you're a doctoral student, you really have a special opportunity because you're working so closely with at least one of your professors. And you know,

Shane & Spence (37:50)
Mm -hmm.

John Chen (37:57)
There you almost have a different problem, like you know them too well.

Shane & Spence (38:00)
really?

John Chen (38:02)
Yeah, and there it becomes a real challenge sometimes. And I've talked to graduate students who had issues with, you know, like their advisor, it happens, not infrequent. And so the challenge there is how do you share the love of Christ when your working relationship is so fractured and that...

That's a really difficult question. I'm not sure I have a great answer to that.

Shane & Spence (38:36)
 are helpful insights though, and the other things. Thank you. Just an observation. You mentioned that early on, one of the things you built up on too high of a pedestal were relationships or friendships. But the purpose then, I think you said, was to entertain me. I want a lot of friends to entertain me. And now you're still saying this friendship or relationship is critical, but it's got a different purpose.

John Chen (39:00)
Yeah.

Shane & Spence (39:05)
It's a friend, I think you're saying, so I can invest in, you know, and and can both become better. And it, it's funny how we, we take something God creates like relationship and we pervert it, you know, and I use this thing for my own entertainment, but you, you've grown down now you're saying, but now I want to use this to make that person better along with their relationship, you know, so we can both grow together, do life together. I think you said that's beautiful. I love that transformation. Yeah.

John Chen (39:09)
Yeah? Yeah.

Yeah, it's not like it's a terrible, like I've already shared, it's not a terrible experience. It's just, you know, I think when God shapes this, you know, I don't know if it's right to call it being entertained, but we still get joy out of meeting other people. It's just a different expression of joy. It's not what they can do for me anymore. That isn't the central thing that...

Shane & Spence (39:43)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Right. Right. Yeah.

John Chen (40:02)
that I cared about my relationship so much, right?

Shane & Spence (40:05)
Yeah. You know, what's ironic too, is I think people sense that. And when you, when you look for something out of everybody you relate to.

entertainment or success, whatever. You don't tend to have a lot of people that want to relate to you. But when you start to behave like you do and you're looking for relationships because I want to make you better. I want to build each other up. People tend to gravitate around you, even as an introvert. They tend to come around you. And so I'm guessing you probably have a lot of people that come around you there at Baylor. It would be my guess with an attitude like that.

John Chen (40:41)
I've been very fortunate to meet a wide variety of people here. So at Baylor, as a faculty member, you have to profess to be a believer. I think that's, I don't know if you knew that, but.

Shane & Spence (40:58)
I didn't. Yeah, wow.

John Chen (41:00)
but it is the case. So in some sense, the connections are in some sense a little bit ready -made because there's people who are like -minded all over. But yeah, I think you're right. And I'm still growing in that to be really kind of like a sweet aroma that others...

Shane & Spence (41:13)
Yeah.

John Chen (41:29)
people are drawn to. I don't know if I'm really that, know.

Shane & Spence (41:29)
Mm -hmm.

John Chen (41:32)
you know.

Shane & Spence (41:34)
John, faculty across the country who are at state schools or private schools that aren't Christian sometimes feel afraid to be really out there with their faith. They'd be worried that they would offend a student and it'll come back on them. Is it easy when you're at a Christian school like Baylor? Is everyone Christian?

What's it like being at a Christian school?

John Chen (42:05)
wow. Yeah, that's an interesting question. Well, for me, like, I was reached out, Baylor reached out to me rather a number of years ago, probably seven years ago. So some folks here were interested in bringing me on and they knew I was a Christian. And so I kind of let's see if John will come here. And.

At the time, I prayed about it and I'm like, you know.

You know, here at Florida, there's a challenge to being like a believer on campus because you're different from every, you know, most people. And I just saw God doing sort of a growing me and, you know, being in a, putting myself out there more in that environment. And so I passed on that mostly because like, you know, I...

Shane & Spence (43:11)
Hmm.

John Chen (43:11)
 just sensed the Spirit telling me, you know, you need to stay here because, you know, I have work to do on a non -Christian campus for you. So many years later, I'm here now. And I think that it is, there are pluses and minuses to be honest, you know. It is great having that camaraderie and sort of the like -mindedness and friends who are growing in,

in relationship with me. I have one or two guys who I'm like, Lord, thank you for these men. I mean, I think we are becoming really good friends, including one of my colleagues who taught me how to fix my car. So I have useful skills now besides writing paper. I can do that, yes, and I can fix the exterior paint of cars.

Shane & Spence (43:48)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Hmm. Nice. And plastering walls. Plastering walls, fixing cars.

You're very well -rounded. Hey, what he didn't tell you is he's fixing the dip from a five iron in the side of his truck too. His truck. Is what the part he didn't say about that story. These are all practical. We won't tell your wife. It's okay. She'll never see this podcast. You're completely good. Just stack some boxes beside your car every time. Hey, that kind of thought about being a Christian professor in a Christian university also raises this for all the rest of us who aren't professors, right? And I went to college.

John Chen (44:17)
You

You

Thank you.

Shane & Spence (44:40)
And then you got to think about what you're going to do with the rest of your life. And as a Christian, right, the highest calling I can do is going to be a pastor. Like that's the holiest work. Is that true? Or is the holiest work sometimes running a marketing agency or working as an accountant for IBM? Tell me your thoughts on that for all the Christian students out there listening to this.

John Chen (45:02)
Yeah, yeah, so I mean, something when I was on the recent mission trip to Slovakia, I learned something from that with regards to this question. There's a young couple there that were, they were doing what Cru calls a STINT right? So the listeners might not know what that is, but a stint is like, well, you guys know what that is, what?

How would you do?

Shane & Spence (45:31)
short -term international.

John Chen (45:34)
Short -term international, yes, but short -term, a year or two years, yeah. And at the end of their stint, they chose not to continue in full -time mission work and they were going to, as best as I understood what they told me, they were gonna go back to, or find a job or go back to their jobs and be salt and light in their workplaces.

Shane & Spence (45:35)
Maybe one year or two years.

Yeah.

Hmm.

John Chen (46:04)
and in their church and their community. And they had a lot of great ideas along those lines. And, you know, what struck me was like, there wasn't any hint of like, resignation on their part, like, I failed. I mean, it was almost the opposite. I mean, I think they were excited for what God was going to do in their lives, going, taking kind of the

Shane & Spence (46:29)
Hmm.

John Chen (46:31)
If you have that, you have to be a pastor missionary mentality, you might say, poor guys, what happened to them? But that wasn't, I don't see it that way. I don't think they saw it that way. And God will use them in, you know, in incredible ways, I'm sure, in their new sphere outside of the international mission field.

Shane & Spence (46:38)
Mm -hmm.

Hmm.

Mm -hmm. Yeah, that's helpful I think a lot of students do feel like when they're trying to decide a career and maybe they've really seen God work in their lives that they think the best way of honoring God and glorifying him is to go and be a missionary or be a pastor and if I take any other job then that's subpar that's like a Team B in God's kingdom work, but you're describing that no, there's no team separate like that We're all doing God's kingdom work and have different ways of doing it.

Is that what you're saying?

John Chen (47:25)
That's exactly what I'm saying. I mean, they're not, you know, they're not fulfilling like a second class great commission. I don't see it that way at all.

Shane & Spence (47:36)
Yeah. Yeah.

In fact, I'm thinking about the lost that we are called to reach. And it says we've got this task of telling everybody about Jesus, right? These people are not likely to step into First Baptist Church.

on a Sunday morning and properly sit in the pew and read the, you know, listen to a sermon. Like it's unlikely somebody is probably going to work with them though. They're probably going to be in the chair beside them at the tattoo parlor or the dentist or, you know, at the IBM accounting office, wherever you work, you know, that's where they're going to be.

John Chen (48:12)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shane & Spence (48:13)
 a shot at reaching them, Christians have to be in those places. They can't all be in the church and the pulpit speaking. It seems like, yeah. And that kind of excites me, you know, that idea that if people really gravitate to what you're saying and the really strong Christian men and women, they're going through college right now and say, man, the best thing I can do for the cause is go and be a

our first lightning round question. So we're going to head into lightning rounds where we ask you questions simply and short and you answer how, your first answer that comes to mind. So first one is,

John Chen (48:49)
Okay.

Shane & Spence (48:51)
What advice would you give your 18 year old self?

John Chen (48:56)
Seek the Lord. I wasn't a Christian then.

Shane & Spence (48:59)
Yep. Yep. All right. So you've got a senior graduating, getting it in the real world. What's the one piece of advice you give them?

John Chen (49:07)
Well, I kind of like what we've been discussing, you know, be intentional about building relationships. It's lonely, but hang in there. It happens to a lot of people and it's a new time in your life and it's an exciting time.

Shane & Spence (49:15)
Hmm.

Awesome. What advice would you give Christian professors who are not at a Christian school but they want to have an influence for Christ?

John Chen (49:38)
If you want to have an influence for Christ at a non -Christian school, go outside of your silo. Yes, so what I mean is like, find ways to engage people outside your department, cast as wide a net as you can, because I think on a typical campus, there are, you know, Christian faculty kind of hiding in closets.

Shane & Spence (49:49)
What do you mean?

John Chen (50:06)
not intentionally, it's just so big. It never comes up sometimes. And I can't count the number of times I've met someone at the Florida campus who's like, you're a believer. What are you doing here? Or even in the academy of other management scholars at other universities, that's happened too.

Shane & Spence (50:06)
Yeah.

Ha ha.

Okay, great. So how about if you're a parent of a college student, and let's assume they're going to a non -Christian school, or not to Baylor, what advice would you give them to send their kid off?

John Chen (50:40)
well, if, my experience is any guide, what, you know, you, you might freak out initially when you send your kid to college, like we did. we have this app where we can track each other's, you know, locations and stuff. Well, for my daughter, who's a rising junior at university, university of central Florida. I mean, I was just like, like, where is she now? Where is she now? Is she okay? Is she okay? And, you know,

Shane & Spence (50:51)
Really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

John Chen (51:10)
That it's natural, it's okay, but eventually that dissipates and God's got her, you know, and I'm still learning that lesson. God has got her back.

Shane & Spence (51:16)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It isn't it amazing that we all managed to grow up without Find My, like without parents knowing where we were and we somehow survived. But today I feel like I need to know where my kids are all the time for some reason. I'm with you man. I'm right there. The Android app is Life360. okay. Just to not isolate the listeners out there who are Android listeners like me, users. Well, John, what is one thing you think students would most be surprised to know about the life of a

John Chen (51:34)
Yeah.

Shane & Spence (51:50)
professor.

John Chen (51:52)
Well, I think the life of a professor is very complicated. We do things outside of the classroom and we celebrate cool things that happen. We have challenges, you know. I guess it's not surprising when you sit down and talk to them and tell them, but I think going back to our earlier comments, they kind of, you know, see a distance from us

And I also think that for, especially for professors that students find out are believers, many of them want to get to know students. Other professors too, non -Christian professors, they got into it because at some level, I think they, they,

Shane & Spence (52:38)
Mm -hmm.

John Chen (52:43)
They like students. I like the youthful energy that a 20 something has. And I'm like, why can't I do that anymore? But I love being around their enthusiasm. It energizes me. So I don't know that students realize how much that energizes me.

Shane & Spence (52:48)
Yeah.

wow. I feel like I want to under, I want to restate that student, your professor wants to be your friend. Like just give it a try. We've got a promise from professor Chen that he will not bite you. That's right. He might throw a golf club at you, but he won't bite you. That has been a common theme in these interviews. There's a lot of golf clubs floating around here. You're alleviating a lot of fears.

John Chen (53:25)
I'm not the only one, huh? that's good.

Shane & Spence (53:30)
Well, John, thank you. Is there anything else that you would want to add? Anything else you would want to tell students or other faculty who might listen or parents?

John Chen (53:39)
Well, I guess we have also the Meet the Prof that you talked about. And I have a profile there. I would say if you have the time, I'd love for you to just check out my Meet the Prof. And we covered a lot of bases here. But I think there are a few nuggets in there that we haven't talked about. So yeah, go read that.

Shane & Spence (53:45)
Mm -hmm.

 right. That's great. And I'll put that in the show notes, MeetTheProf .com and a link to your specific profile. So I have thoroughly enjoyed this. It's been really nice to get to know you and hear your story. Thanks for your transparency and your openness about it too. It means a lot.

John Chen (54:10)
Awesome.

I love this too. Thanks for having me on.

Shane (54:22)
Well, I hope you enjoyed that interview and you can learn more as well as read about other Christian professors on our website, meettheprof.com. And you can search for professors by name or by state or even by college campus. And you can also find many helpful resources about questions that were in the interview and other ways of answering tough questions at Cru.org and that's Cru.org.

And college students,

If you would like to ask a question to a professor and potentially be on the show, this is how you do it. Follow us on Instagram, it's meettheprofofficial, and then upload us a video by direct message where you say your name, your college campus, what year you are, and then ask your question. And you can ask more than one question, and hopefully then you can be featured on the show.

And if you enjoyed this, would you please share this episode with a friend?

Please don't forget to follow or subscribe to the podcast. And if you're listening to this, but you would like to watch the videos of these interviews, we record them all and we put them on YouTube. So you can subscribe to our YouTube channel, which is Meet the Prof Official. And we would love to meet you there. And lastly, if you would like to financially support our Faculty Commons ministry with Cru, you can do so online

by going to

So thank you for being with us and until next time, we hope you feel encouraged to have

Christ -centered conversation on your college campus.